Weaning Zhen Zhen: Step 3
Posted at 4:00 pm February 17, 2009 by Suzanne HallMonday morning, February 16, was the first morning we lengthened the separation time for giant pandas Bai Yun and Zhen Zhen to approximately 18 hours. We separated the bears about 4 p.m. Sunday, February 15, as has been the case for more than a week. However, on Monday we waited to reunite the two bears until about 10:15 a.m. Zhen has been used to seeing her mother again early in the morning, and the change dawned on her slowly yesterday.
Initially she was nonplussed and spent the early morning hours feeding on bamboo and playing with three Boomer balls the keeper had placed in her exhibit. At about 8:30 a.m., when the hearing study training began with Bai Yun, Zhen heard the clinking of gates and the voices of keepers talking with Bai during her session. It must have suddenly occurred to her, “Hey, I am usually with momma before this happens,” and she began to try to peek down the corridor and wait at her keeper door for access. But it wasn’t time yet.
The falling rain did not deter Zhen from slow motoring about her exhibit, checking her doors repeatedly and sitting patiently atop her den or near the corridor. More clinking gates signaled that Bai Yun had now been released into the exhibit next door, and still the gate had not opened. Slowly, Zhen started getting more wound up, moving faster about her exhibit, climbing and generally foregoing the chance to rest.
Bai Yun, however, showed no sign of concern. On exhibit, she happily munched bamboo, never once checked the separation gate, and barely paused at any point in the morning to look about her. In fact, staff reported she had one of her best-ever training sessions that morning: clearly she is not losing sleep about the separation from Zhen.
Once reunited, Zhen mugged her mother. Within a few minutes of the introduction, Bai Yun relented to the gales of Hurricane Zhen and led her into the den, out of the rain, for a nursing bout. Satiated and satisfied with her mommy time, Zhen then climbed a tree and slept on her own for a period.
We anticipated that this step in the weaning process would be one of the most difficult for our littlest panda. Her siblings also started to really feel growing pains at this stage, and so we knew Zhen would likely follow suit. But the real key to all of this is Bai Yun.
As I mentioned in previous blogs, we don’t know for certain how the weaning process is achieved in the wild. We believe it to be a largely mother-driven endeavor, with mom either wandering off, denning up, or driving her cub away at some point. One thing we can say for sure: it doesn’t matter if Zhen is 8 months or 18 months or 28 months, she wouldn’t leave her mother if it were up to her. This is why we expect some discomfort from her during the weaning process. But Bai Yun is a different story. When she shows us she is relaxed and taking this all in stride, then she is telling us SHE is ready. In the wild, she would be content with taking the steps necessary to separate from her youngster. And this is our barometer that the timing is right.
I have read several of your comments on the blogs in recent weeks and know that many of you have expressed sadness over the weaning. Like you, I feel a little for Zhen when I see her appearing anxious. As a staff, our concern over her well-being is one driving force behind our intensive effort at this time: we are monitoring her closely, watching both Bai and Zhen overnight with videotape, assessing their reactions on a daily basis. Keepers are ensuring Zhen has access to high-quality bamboo, enrichment items, and their attention. But we recognize that there is no way around Zhen feeling a little confused during this time.
However, Barometer Bai Yun informs us that we are moving forward in the right way and at a pace that is comfortable…for HER. As a mother myself, I understand the sense of relief when a youngster moves on, grows up, takes the next step. Bai Yun’s current demonstration that she is content is an important indicator that we should all factor into the equation.
Some of you have asked about comparisons to Wolong cubs and their sociality post-weaning. In Wolong, cubs are weaned very early, at about six months of age. They are then placed in groups with other youngsters to fulfill their social needs, a very smart way to handle motherless youngsters. Zhen, like our other cubs, has been with her mother a full year longer than those Wolong cubs and is better able to adapt to a life on her own as a result.
We recognize, however, that subadult pandas can be more social than adults. In the wild, young male bears can be found in proximity to older males, a type of social shadow that the older male does not feel threatened by. Even the young subadults seen in trees at mating sites may be drawn there by the ruckus of a female in estrus and her entourage of males. We try to offer social opportunities to our subadults in the form of increased keeper interactions, training sessions, and howdy gate opportunities when possible. To that end, Su Lin and Zhen may one day meet across a gate. It’s also the case that our littlest independent pandas often seem drawn to the public viewing areas, enjoying the daily litany of admiring guests who come to see them. We will accommodate this inclination as well, when the time is right.
Zhen will soon be pulled off exhibit, when we are ready to make the separation between mom and cub final. For a time she will live behind the scenes, soaking up keeper love and residing far enough away from mom that it will not be a tease to her that mom is in proximity. Enjoy these last few days of the two together, and celebrate that she will soon be on her way to adulthood. Like Su Lin and her other siblings before her, Zhen will be well cared for as she makes this important transition.
Suzanne Hall is a senior research technician for San Diego Zoo Conservation Research.
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February 17th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Hi! Just got on SDZ pandacam c4 and watched Bai and ZZ having a little bit of a tustle on that big log at 2:30 pm PST. It was only a couple of minutes before they went off somewhere else, but it was fun to watch. I also saw ZZ all by herself in her enclosure walking around and looking thru the fence earlier this morning. I agree with all of you that this tugs at the heartstrings, but I think ZZ can handle her life on her own. She’s got that personality to go thru with this. She’ll miss her mom every once in awhile, but that will go away once she has her own yard to call home, have planty of boo and snacks to eat on, and alot of toys to play along with climbing trees. She’ll be busy enough with all of that as well as having panda keepers being with her and starting on her behavior training. Just saw the titles to the 2 newest updates on the panda page, and I’ll read those later on. I knew stage 3 was coming, tho!
I did read the Spotlight on Vet Medicine on the NZ website about Tian’s eye problem. Very interesting article, and I didn’t realize that all of this took place about a year ago or so. Somehow I missed those updates because I usually try to read their panda updates every time they come up on the NZ panda page. At least Tian still has his eye protector and his eyesight, and he’s doing great.
Well, gonna go for now. Will check back later.
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 17th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
As I read your blog posting describing the final stages of the prescribed weaning process, while watching the cub and Bai interact affectionately and playfully I cannot help but to cry that this process will end their relationship. I initially became attracted to your site and pandacam just as Zhen Zhen was born, and I have become addicted to watching and monitoring their evolution. Because of this it is very difficult for me to deal with their separation.
At the same time I understand the great purpose of your program and that you are acting in the best interest of the species. Considering the status of the Wolong preserve, is there any possibility of expanding your progam here by possibly adding another male and allowing the developing female cubs to eventually mate? Would additional financing be productive in an expansion endeavor? If so, I would like to help by leading a fund raising campaign to this end.
Steve Burton, CPA
February 17th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Hi! Well, on the subject of cubs, here are 2 video alerts for everyone! First, Atlanta Zoo has a very short vid of Xi Lan climbing the tree structure in the dayroom, plus they announced that Xi will be in the dayroom all day long from now on! Wish those vids were alot longer! No live pandacam to see all of that excitement, tho! Second, Memphis Zoo has a new video up on their panda blog page that describes Ya Ya and Le Le trying to get together on 12/25/2008. This is the first video of a 3 part video set that they will have on that page. Go to Memphis Zoo website and hit the link, “Panda Blog”, and you’re there. The videos will have one of the keepers explaining what is going on in each of the vids. Enjoy!
Just caught the SDZ pandacam, and there were no pandas in sight! Apparently, they were off somewhere else in the yard.
Just thought I would let everyone know about the vids. P Wong, meant to mention about your latest panda/tourist conversation that you wrote a few days ago. Cute! Keep them coming! Still have to read these 2 new panda updates, so I better get on it! Will check back later.
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 17th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Thanks, Suzanne, for all the info and for understanding our sadness and nervousness about the separation. You are, after all, there and better able to see them and gauge their reactions and you have the benefit of past experience to draw on. We watch (and sniff) from afar.
All that being said, Bai and ZZ were awfully sweet today in the stump, and later they had a slow motion wrestle on top of the den in the other yard. It looks to me as if Bai is being somewhat patient with Miss ZZ, even if she (Bai) is ready to move on. Oh, sigh–I never made it to SDZ in time to see Bai and ZZ together, but I would happily volunteer to come out and help distract Miss ZZ after the separation.
Hang on, Zhennie–you’re in good hands!
February 17th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
This afternoon -Tuesday-late in the afternoon EST, I observed some very rough “play” between Bai and Zhen Zhen. It continued for a long time and seemed that Zhen Zhen could not get away from her Mom. This must be the agressive behavior that people refer to. This is the first time I have observed this action. I have enjoyed watching the panda cam for about 6 months. It is addicting! Was what I saw “play” or aggressive behavior on Bai’s part? I was getting very concerned. Shortly after that, the pandas were seperated. Would love to know if anyone else observed this action.
February 17th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Suzanne — You guys rock! Thank you so much for taking the time and having the patience to give such a wonderful explanation of this next step in Zhen’s weaning process. It’s heartwarming to know of the extra care given by the staff to both these beautiful animals at this stage of development (and all the rest of the time, as far as that goes).
February 17th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
finally I saw ZZ all over her mother..it was so cute…I have no idea how the keepers handle all the stress and sadness that they have to wean ZZ from mother..in fact why do we do this we are not in the wild..so there is no predator etc..the zoo try to act like we have to do this because this is how the wild is…ok but we give them enrichment and the best Boos …sigh I am just heartbroken I guess I will never understand how the zoo really works
February 17th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Oh, No! I was hoping that the panda team will take ZZ off of exhibit after 1st week in March! I planned a trip to SDZ to see ZZ that week! Is it possible to hold off, Suzanne?
February 17th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Thanks for the very informative and reassuring article. I’m sure it won’t come as a surprise to the keepers, though, that reading this was very bittersweet.
I am finding this weaning especially poignant because just last week we took our youngest daughter across the country so she could further her education. I guess I am experiencing this panda weaning in reverse – in my case, Mama is not so sure she was ready for the separation! And unlike Bai, there is no possibility of any “babies” in my future. So, fellow pandalovers, as you think about Bai and Zhennie, please also keep me in your thoughts. I could use some good karma thoughts my way!
February 17th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
To those of you that wanted to know about the pandacam on the Animal Planet website, I just checked my email inbox tonite, and there was an email from AP webmaster about the pandacam. For quite a few years, they were able to have the pandacam thru National Zoo on a live feed. NZ has asked Animal Planet to remove the pandacam off of the AP website, so they did. There goes our backup! Anyway, the 2 pandacams on the NZ panda page are still in good working order, so we all can see Mei, Tian, and Tai thru those cams. Hopefully, the cams will stay in very good working order if and when Mei Xiang has a cub in a few months! Back in 2005, those cams had huge hits on the NZ website after Tai Shan was born, and there were some problems with one or both of the cams, so the pandacam on the Animal Planet website was a very nice backup then. This year, we won’t have that backup now.
Well, that’s the update about the pandacam on the AP website!
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 17th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Thank you Suzanne for also helping us through all this weaning, I think it may be harder on us than Zhen Zhen. I know it’s that time and she be coming a big girl but a tear still comes to my eyes. This afternoon I saw a play session with mom and ZZ this is when it get to you, knowing all this is coming to an end. I took about 10 postcard pictures of this so I can save these last moments together.
Thank you again for keeping us all informed on what’s going on and what will happen.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
I think it that it is wonderful that ZZ will have you keepers to love her and be there for her once this separation is final. Thank you, Suzanne, for this very long and informative blog.
Carol Turner
Chicago, IL
February 17th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
While we’ll never be sure – I wonder if Zhen Zhen can sense Bai is telling her “ok kid, I’ve done a wonderful job raising you. We’ll miss each other for a day or 2 but we’ll both be fine. I’m exhausted & really need some adult panda time by myself.” After the 4th weaning it sounds worse than it is – cubs may miss their moms for a few hours each day but their wonderful keepers are there to help & by day 2 or 3 they are fine
February 17th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
I read the 2 newest updates, and it looks like the panda keepers have a lot going on with Bai and ZZ. I loved that one section about ZZ mugging her mom when they got back together with ZZ being a very determined little girl chasing after momma for some playtime or to try to get some milk from her. ZZ is a very opportunistic little panda when she wants to do something. Reading about ZZ pacing around her yard by herself checking the fence and gate sort of tugged on me because it looked like ZZ was a little bit lost without her mom. But, I still feel that ZZ will get thru this pretty well. Having a little seperation anxiety is part of the process until ZZ gets used to being by herself 24/7 after the whole thing is done. Sounds like Bai is more than ready to be away from ZZ and start being an “empty nester” for awhile. Then, Bai and Gao can have some get together time again! I would love to see all 3 momma pandas–Bai Yun, Mei Xiang, and Ya Ya–have cubs this year! Fortunately, Lun Lun is exempt this time around with little Xi Lan to take care of and raise.
Well, gonna go! Thanks to Suzanne and Ellie for their very interesting articles about the weaning process that’s going on now between Bai and ZZ.
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 18th, 2009 at 4:35 am
Thanks for all of the updates Suzanne. We all appreciate you keeping us East Coasters in the know.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:12 am
Thank you for the update and reassurance, Suzanne. The hard part for me is putting myself in Zhen’s “shoes” and considering the range of reactions she might have (loneliness, fear, anxiety, confusion). There must be moments when the changes are a bit overwhelming for her. When I consider that she is in great hands, however, it is easier. Zhen will be kept busy and safe. She’s not subject to the dangers that she would face in the wild as a young, inexperienced, small bear. I hope that researchers are able to someday observe more about the mother-cub separation in the wild but if it winds up documented on video, the scene of a cub waiting in vain for mom to come back is a scene that would be hard for me to watch.
I know little Zhen will be fine, as she’s been able to learn as much as she can from interacting with her mother for the past 18 months. That learning will be vital someday when Zhen has cubs of her own and she draws on the experience of being mothered by an excellent teacher. I’ve wondered a lot about the effect that being removed from the mother at an abnormally young age has on a giant panda, particularly the females, so I’m really glad that SDZ lets nature take its course rather than force an unnatural separation. While I know that the breeding centers remove the cubs early for the purpose of accelerating the number of cubs that a female can have, thus boosting the captive population, I’m a little concerned about the long-term effect. It’s been good to hear that there are more instances of cubs being left with their mothers for longer lengths of time though.
Anyway, the whole SDZ “panda team” does a great job. I am really grateful that I have the opportunity to watch and learn.
February 18th, 2009 at 9:49 am
What a wonderful update! It does pull at the heartstrings a little, but as with everything in life, it’s time for Zhen’s next phase as she becomes her own panda. I can imagine how interesting that will be, both for her and us as we learn more about her personality. There always comes a time when “it’s time” and I cherish the privilege to witness the process between mom and cub. I look forward to watching her next phase, and hearing about her training antics.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:02 am
I don’t see how the zoo can justify breeding these pandas in this horrible economy. The zoo has to be taking a hit financially just like everyone else. My concern is that the other animals are going to pay the price. I love the pandas, but the habitats, etc., of the not-so-cute critters are just as important. I would like to think China is willing to be a little more flexible, but I won’t hold my breath.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Its not about us having our heartstrings tugged – its about people caring that these animals are being parted before they are actually ready just to please people who want to see yet another baby panda. What is the rush?
How can anyone actually stand to hear the youngster cry for her mother when you know its not a natural thing, you have taken her from her mother! And all to please people who make remarks like ‘I get bored just watching the pandas eat and sleep after I have stood for hours waiting to see them’. I know its meant to be about conservation, but its more about rushing things along just to get another baby. I know you will probably not print this and if you do all the simpering lot will accuse me of sentimentality – how insulting – but I feel I have to tell you what I feel.Poor Bai Yun, poor Zhen Zhen. Just like Su Lin and wonderful Mei Sheng before her – taken from her beautiful mother just to please people who dont really care.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:46 am
“- taken from her beautiful mother just to please people who dont really care.”
What? I’m baffled by that statement. . .
Anyhoo – I say ‘way to go Zoomie!’ – growing up so big and strong. A huge thank-you to Suzanne for her fabulous blog entry once again. Very informative and from the heart. Thank-you to the panda keepers, also, for being there for our little girl during this time. She will be just fine, I know, just as Hua Mei, Mei Sheng, Tai Shan, Su Lin and Mei Lan have been thru this process.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:50 am
If the SDZ were rushing Bai to have another cub, they would have separated Bai and Zhen a year ago. If Bai were a mother panda in the bamboo forests of China, she would separate from her cub within two years of its birth, so this isn’t an unnatural separation. The zoo staff have to find a satisfactory way to separate Bai and ZZ since Bai and ZZ don’t have the space to go their separate ways as they would in the wild. If Bai was forced to stay with Zhen, there would no doubt be an ugly outcome eventually (fighting, injuries, or worse). I don’t really understand the characterization that Zhen is being “taken away from her mother.” Bai is not causing an uproar over being separated from Zhen. If this was unnatural, she would be tearing at the gate to get her cub back.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Thank you for such an informative post. ‘Our’ zoo pandas and other critters receive the best of care from all of you. In this day and time I think I’d rather be a zoo panda being carefully protected and cared for by loving staff than to be a wild panda cub at the mercy of predators, poachers and starvation! That’s just my opinion.
I once assisted in the weaning of captive hamsters; it was so obvious that mommy hamster wanted to get away from her babies, who were quite certain they still needed to nurse. The babies were not happy to be separated from mommy, and it made me sad to have to do it, but mommy was very happy to have her own space and no babies! It made me think of the panda cubs I’ve had the privilege of watching grow up, and I completely agree with you, Suzanne, that Mommy Bai deserves the last word when it comes to weaning!
Keep up the Wonderful work you do with and for the pandas and other residents of the Zoo! And thank you very much for taking the time to keep us updated on the latest happenings!
February 18th, 2009 at 10:54 am
And on a happier note, how about that Yang Yang, tipping the scale at around 300 lbs.! He’s been busy bench pressing those bamboo stalks.
The MZ video of Ya Ya and Le Le is great. Lots of closeups of those two on MZ’s panda cam this morning, too. I can’t wait for parts 2 and 3 of their video series.
February 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Mary #19 ..I know how you feel..but China is worst they separate them at 6 months..but bcuz they have other youngsters to play they are occupied but still can you imagine without your mother..damn.. SDZ doesn’t have any other cubs…in some ways yeah they are weaning her off so they can breed again (ppl know that they won’t say it )…Zoo is a sad place but aslong they are taking care of..it always a 2 way part in this society. figure it out
February 18th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I just have to say something re #19’s comments. You must be new not to know how much care and attention the staff at San Diego Zoo give their animals. Did you nurse your children until they decided they were ready to stop. How old were they – 10, 11 ???
Trust the staff. They know what they are doing. I could go on and on but will restrain myself. The bottom line is:
I AM GIVING A “GREAT WORK AWARD” TO ALL THE STAFF AT SAN DIEGO ZOO.
I am fortunate to visit every couple of years and will continue to do so for as long as I can.
February 18th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Suzanne, I have just read your post with such mixed feelings. I understand totally how Bai Yun must feel, and that has been showing more steadily over the recent weeks. Although as the Mum of a 16 year old daughter, who is becoming more independent herself, I’m not ready to let her go yet! It’s both hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time to see Zhen Zhen hurling herself at Bai and following her everywhere. I’m sure Zhen must have feelings about this – she’s an intelligent animal and I’ve always thought that if an animal has intelligence, then it has feelings. I wish we were able to find out what is going on in her mind. The thought of Zhen being pulled off exhibit for a while so she can adjust is painful but I know it is the best way. Bai, of course will be happy not to have to share her food any more! Oh, why does life have to be so complicated…..
February 18th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Mary #19: I understand your frustration however when they say it would be crueler in the wild – they are being honest. Do a google search for Dr. Pan Wenshi, he has been studying wild pandas for decades now. He’s also written several books about their life in wild and in particular one female panda he has been studying since she had her first cub. She weaned her first cub at 13 months of age and then she mated again and literally drove off her male panda cub quite aggressively as she prepared to den up for her new panda cub. Since then she has given birth to a cub every 2 years and like the first one just chases them off one day and they are left to fend for themselves. In fact I suspect that is probably what happened to Gao Gao when he was found in the wild all alone and injured.
I know it’s hard to watch, it breaks my heart as well however due to the space restrictions they can’t just keep ZZ with her mom until she mates again and then drives her away so it has to be done like this. It may not be perfect but at least she won’t be at the mercy of predators or older pandas who might not be so welcoming to someone new in their territory.
February 18th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
For those of you who are new to this process, and are having emotional problems dealing with it, please be assured that the SDZ staff are extremely attentive to every need of the pandas. The closely monitor the behaviour of both mother and cub and adjust the process and timetable accordingly. They must take their cues from the mother because she is the one who has been through this before, and whose innate sense of what is best for her and her cub is most easily readible. A cub has not been through this before and doesn’t know that they will be fine and have lots of care and attention from human “mothers” after they leave the close proximity of their panda dam. Not to worry, little Zhen will follow in the footsteps of her three siblings before her and will thrive once the process is behind her. We must look forward to the time when Zhen and Su Lin can meet and communicate. That can NOT happen UNTIL Zhen is fully weaned and AWAY from her mother. So pull out your tissues, sit back enjoy all the moments of Bai and Zhen together, and get ready for a joyous and adventurous time when Zhen and Su Lin can get to know each other, socialize and vocalize, and Bai Yun can have her well deserved rest.
Kudos Panda Staff – you are doing an exemplary job of taking care of “our” pandas.
February 18th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Suzanne, will Zhen be on the pandacam while she’s off exhibit? I know we’d all like to see how she’s doing.
And Zhen really is ready for this. That little scamp won’t be down for long! Plus, Bai has done her job extremely well and deserves some rest. Actually, I think what the Zoo does must be far easier on the cubs than what happens in the wild. Here the cubs have a chance to adjust to being on their own, with plenty of loving help, while in the wild they just suddenly can’t find momma, or worse, are driven off.
The thing that worries me is that when Su Lin and later Zhen go to China, they won’t be allowed to use their full mothering skills as taught by Bai Yun, but will lose their babies after only six months. My unrealistic dream is that we find a way either to keep them, or to stipulate that they be allowed to fully raise their cubs over there, as Bai has done. I understand the need to breed more pandas, endangered as they are, but if the final goal is to release them into the wild eventually, don’t cubs need the full time with their mothers? It must be a difficult choice for the Chinese.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
To Mary #19: When you appropriated my name, I didn’t complain. I simply changed it. But now you’ve gone too far. You don’t know what you are talking about and frankly, we don’t need your negativity. Separation is natural. Deal with it! and quit your bellyaching. Unless you are a credentialed panda expert……
To all of us, people at the various zoos are doing the very best they know how to do to have their animals thrive. Let’s enjoy the fruits of their efforts.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Lee #25 – As my Italian mother would say: Brava e molto bravissimo – meaning: good and very excellent! Thank you for your words – my sentiments exactly.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
#29 Fonsia…I also share the concerns you have re: the separation of mother and cub at 3-6 months. I recently read that in some instances, the Chinese giant panda researchers have begun to rethink that practice. As a result, some cubs are staying with their mothers for a year or more. As the captive panda population grows – thus reducing some of the immediacy of mass breeding (as I call it) – the natural process between mother and cub will hopefully be the norm.
Captive pandas already miss out on some vital learning (foraging for bamboo, watching social interactions between other pandas, observing mating practices, etc.) and I hate to think that female pandas in particular are missing out when it comes to learning mothering skills. At times I’ve seen people refer to Lun’s and MX’s mothering skills in a snarky way or imply that they are bad mothers, but I consider that they had no way to learn since they were removed from their own mothers when they were able to walk. (MX may have been with her mother a little longer, but she was removed before the natural weaning process began.) I’m not convinced that everything a wild animal knows about being a mother is instinctual. I think they also draw on the memory of how they were mothered themselves, as humans do, as well as by observing other pandas.
As passionate as I am in hoping that someday all giant panda cubs will be able to grow up under their mother’s tutelage (unless, of course, they’re abandoned or in danger from their moms), I can see that Bai and Zhen’s separation is necessary and natural. They need the zoo staff’s help in doing what comes naturally.
February 18th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
yeah of course SDZ is doing a great job…even I wanted them to print their blogs on Kindle…it is what it is RE: conservation
February 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
I agree with most of you who are giving props to the SDZ. I am GRATEFUL to the staff at SDZ for the involvement of the preservation of this incredible species. Thank you.
Has anyone heard ANYTHING on the cam for ZA? I keep visiting the website (tried to complete the survey numerous times!), hoping that there will be some news.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
I was fortunate enough to catch the last few minutes of a nursing session this morning, but it definitely seemed to me that Bai was not enjoying the session as much as ZZ. At the end it seemed as though she was saying ” I have had enough of this!”. She pushed ZZ away and walked away. At first ZZ laid down on the log, but got up and began following Bai Yun around and then I got a little concerned. Bai backed up and sat down on ZZ. Little ZZ was squirming to get out and all you could see of her was her head and a little of her arm and shoulder. Bai let her up soon, and I must admit at times I would have considered the same behaviour with my own child, but I was a little concerned for ZZ”s safety at the time. A little later, ZZ was lying on her back with a piece of bamboo and Bai walked over and started wrestling with her . ZZ seems to take it all in stride, and seems fine, but I am beginning to understand the practical reasons for separating them, even though it still hurts my heart. I too, hope we will be able to see ZZ on panda cam while she is off exhibit.
Thank you too, Suzanne, for the detailed blog on step 3 of the weaning. Thank you for your concern for us, the panda fans, who just can’t get our heads around separating Mama and baby.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Linda #34: On one of the other panda boards I frequent, there is a lady who is in touch within the zoo and she posts from time to time on that ZA cam status when she hears from them. Sheposted today that they are working out some technical issues but hope to have it up within a few weeks. Fingers crossed.
Viola: I saw when ZZ woke mama up and wanted to nurse and then when Bai sat on her…lol…I too thought..holy moly that Bai is a big girl! Poor little ZZ but that didn’t deter her from sticking to mom like velcro and following her everywhere. I have to say that little ZZ has captured my heart, she’s just adorable and so full of life! I can’t wait until she meets Su Lin!
February 18th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
To those who don’t understand, pandas even in the wild they have cubs about every two years if they find a mate. Sad to say many of the cubs may not survive for many reasons. But in the zoos they’re well protected and everything is done to make sure they have a good life. As for the zoo pandas mothering skills Bai, Mei, and Lun have been excellent mothers with very little help from the panda staff. I have been watching panda mothers and cubs for 4 years now starting with Tai Shan and Su Lin and I have seen nothing but love between mother and cub.
February 19th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Golly. Thanks for writing this blog Suzanne. Thanks for the info on how Bai and Zhen are doing during this important transition. I now have a huge lump of emotion in my throat for Zhennie.
It even reminds me of the days when my mom and sisters helped move me into my dorm for my first semester at the U. I remember crying my eyes out because it was the first time I was on my own and I was missing my younger sisters and family and didn’t know anyone yet. Luckily I had a sophmore for a roomate who knew people (and most importantly which profs to avoid!). She was a lifesaver. After I got used to the idea of being on my own I remember I didn’t even want to go home for the holidays!
This is what I think of when I see Zhennie searching and anxious. ALL children have to separate from their moms at some point regardless of species.
I’m glad Zhennie has all of the GPRS researchers and keepers to help her through her “growing up” phase. I’m looking forward to see more of her on the cam soon and can’t wait to hear she’s met her big sis!
February 19th, 2009 at 12:48 am
From Mary (#19) – “its about people caring that these animals are being parted before they are actually ready just to please people who want to see yet another baby panda.”
I’ve been watching this cam since Mei Sheng was born. Before Su Lin was weaned there was an incident with “food aggression”. No doubt there was the same indication when it was time for Mei Sheng and I’ve seen it with Zhen Zhen as well. There WOULD come a time that Bai Yun would get aggressive if the weaning wasn’t progressing. Since Bai Yun cannot expand her territory as she would if she was in the wild the staff have to follow a weaning protocol to ensure the safety of Zhennie. The keepers and researchers know what is best for the cubs and Bai Yun. As is mentioned in Suzanne’s blog, Bai is doing just fine. I would bet ALL my savings, in this economy, that Bai is relieved to not have Zhen compete for her ‘boos and biscuits anymore.
February 19th, 2009 at 9:05 am
As always, a wonderful update from Suzanne, thank you for taking the time in your busy day to update everyone and to calm the fears of those who are going through this for the first time, Zhennie will be fine, just as those who were weaned before her are, for example, watching Tai this morning in the trees, he is a happy boy, Lani is a happy girl and Zhennie wil come into her own, i am just thankful that we have been able to share such a precious time, instead of feeling upset maybe others can feel this way too
THANK YOU to all the staff and volunteers at SDZ who allow us to watch and learn with every new day
February 19th, 2009 at 9:21 am
#36, Kathy, thank you for your info. Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
Cute little video on ZA website of Xi climbing; and a new picture as well.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Melissa #32 Sometimes the cubs are removed from their mother because they are “abandoned”. It was the case for Lun Lun, her mother, Bing Bing, stopped caring for her and Lun Lun was removed from her mother when she was 4 1/2 month old. At the AZ they were kind of nervous before Lun Lun gave birth to Mei Lan since she hadn’t learned the mothering skills from her own mother. But the concerns were not warrant as she turned out to be an exceptional mother. This time around, after Xi Lan birth, she was smart enough to attract the attention to the keepers when her cub was sick. Without their intervention, Xi Lan would probably not have survived. So mothering skills probably come natural to most pandas even though they can not observed it from other female pandas besides their own mother, if so lucky, since they live a solitary life.
February 19th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Hearing about the weaning process brings up many thoughts of our own “weaning” or growing up from children to adults. For some, it is a time of adventure and happy memories and for others it is a scary time that was full of problems. And there’s no rhyme or reason why one is easy and another is not.
Zhen is having a pretty easy time of it. Of course, there are moments when she is not sure she wants this to happen. And also, like during our youth, Zhen at times can revert back to cub behaviors. Maturity in the animals world is not one moment in time, it’s about learning and growing and regressing and growing some more. As a human, I like to think that Bai Yun is such a good mother that she “told” Zhen about the separation. I know it’s silly, but that’s what I like to think…. See, I can regress into child-like thinking at times also!
I am one of the “olde tymers” here. I’ve experienced the weaning process more times than I care to admit– and it is usually harder on the people than it is on the animals. Look back over the comments from the weanings of the other cubs and you will see basically the same questions, comments, misgivings, and reassurances.
I am so thrilled that the SDZ shares so much of what they are doing with our beloved creatures. And I am glad that they have many years of training, researching, experiencing, and building relationships with colleagues (especially in China… the land of the giant panda). I hear such wisdom from Suzanne’s post of how they are proceeding with weaning our Precious little girl. The wisdom that comes from YEARS of learning and observing. And it makes me feel secure that Zhen is in good hands even after she leaves Bai Yun’s maternal paws.
Thanks for all the hard work of weaning Zhen. Like you said it affects her keepers and the people around her. It’s difficult not to just give in to a young one’s cries, but to be firm and let her know that she is a “BIG GIRL” now. That’s hard work and I applaud you for it!
Love, Joy
February 19th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Hi, you all! Just got on pandacam c3, and I’m wondering where the panda named ZZ is in that tree? Anybody been able to spot her up there yet? (10:45 am PST; 1:45 pm EST). It’s pretty tough trying to spot a panda up in those trees now, and it will get even tougher to see her in the trees when the new spring leaves start sprouting soon!
Got some great info about Xi Lan from AZ’s update from yesterday. These are his latest measurements and weight from this week that the vets and keepers took on him. They did say that these are as accurate as they can get them because of the wiggle factor of the cub. Here are Xi’s numbers:
body length–34 inches; tail length–4 inches; neck girth–13 inches; chest girth–18.5 inches; stomach girth–20 inches; nose pad width–1.5 inches; weight–22 pounds. Compare these numbers to the measurement numbers a couple of months ago, and we can all see that this little guy has done some growing–FAST! While they were at it, they also weighed the other 3 pandas this week Here are their weights: Lun Lun: 227-248 pounds; Yang Yang: 277-304 pounds; Mei Lan: 152-163 pounds. Little fluctuations in their weights are due to how much they eat during the day, week, month, and the time of year it is. Yang gets the win in the weight department! Have the SDZ keepers and vets had a chance to do any current weights on Gao, Su Lin, and Bai Yun lately? Let us know!
I also haven’t heard anything from AZ about their efforts on getting the pandacam back online yet either. Their survey is still online, tho. Try to get on their website, take their survey, and make your comments ASAP. Don’t know how much longer they will have this survey going.
Well, that’s ir for now. Gonna go and check out the pandacams. Will write in later on!
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 19th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Suzanne, at what point can you tell the difference between play and aggression? Is aggression strictly food motivated?
February 19th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Zhen Zhen is in seventh heaven right now 11:46 AM – She is enjoying a nursing session with mama Bai.
Very sweet!
February 19th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Hi again! Pandacam c5 has the best showing of Bai Yun leaning up against a tree and little ZZ getting her milk lunch! CUTE!!! Nice closeup, meerkats!!
Also, just got on the AZ panda page to check on any new updates about Xi Lan, and today’s update (Thurs., 2/19/2009, 2:45pm EST) was about making a panda mask! This is a pretty cool article since Mardi Gras season is going on right now. So, for those of you that love Mardi Gras, get on the AZ panda page and read this! They have provided instructions on the materials you’ll need and how to make the mask along with a picture of one that a keeper has made. Even art teachers can use this for their art classes as a way of teaching the kids about the conservation efforts of the pandas in the wild. Neat idea! Have fun with this one!!
Hope you all got a chance to catch ZZ and Bai on the pandacam during ZZ’s nursing session!
Will be back later on!
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 19th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I’m enjoying the nursing session right now.
I noticed Bai trying to push ZZ away before she started to nurse, but it didn’t work. LOL!
Has anyone heard of the Bubble Cam?
As if we needed another cam to watch, but it has close ups of different animals, including the Panda. Fantastic videos of Ya Ya & Le Le from MZ. 
February 19th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Awww, the girls were so cute a view minutes ago. ZZ was nursing, and Bai had her arm up on the branch. Cute, cute! Hope everyone got a chance to see them.
I have to commend everyone on their thoughtfulness and knowledge on the weaning. There have been some very well written postings. Thank you everyone.
February 19th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Suzanne, thank you for an excellent update. And thank you to San Diego Zoo for allowing everyone to express his/her opinions and feelings. Feelings like the ones expressed by Mary are neither positive nor negative. They are her feelings, that’s all. We all have them and I would say that while I believe SDZ’s care of their pandas is the best in the world, I still am sad to see the separation between mother and cub.
February 19th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Sorry — me again. It’s 12:15, and I was wondering what ZZ is playing with. Is it a piece of cardboard?
February 19th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Both Bai and ZZ seem quite happy today! Nice reunion, lots of side by side ‘boo’ eating, hugging, playing, wrestling and a nice long nursing session! Now ZZ is playing with that blue enrichment toy and earlier she was rolling around with a piece of cardboard. Bai has initiated alot of the playing today, almost hard to tell which one is the cub
February 19th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Suzanne, I have a question for you. How often are fruitsicles given to the panda’s (if at all)? Has ZZ tried one yet?
February 19th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
#44 – Chari, I took the survey too! I wanted to let ZA know my thoughts on not seeing our new panda cub grow up. We’re missing so many milestones! I hope and pray they have it up soon. Maybe the survey will be a big factor in getting it back online. I also agree that it would be neat to have some “weighty” information about our SDZ pandas. I’m wondering just how big Sweet Su is lately. Is Bai Yun gaining some weight for her upcoming estrus?
And, If I didn’t mention before, a BIG BEAR HUG of THANKS to all the SDZ and GPRS staff for taking such excellent care of our favorite family in San Diego! Thanks especially for taking the time for Zhennie during her separation by providing her with extra treats and enrichment to ease her anxieties. She will soon go to school too! She’ll have fund bonding with her keepers when the training starts. Can I get a job there?!! Just kidding!
February 19th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
To Viola and Kathy – yes I saw Bai sit on Zhennie too! If Bai had her way, this weaning process would have been immediate I’m sure. The gradual separation is for Zhen’s benefit more than for Bai’s.
February 19th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
To All:
We visited Panda Central at 11:00 Pacific time and Zhen was in her tree sleeping. Bai was in the other exhibit on top of her hut sleeping. We went down to the Lesser Flamingo Lagoon and up to visit the birds of prey. Then back to the pandas. I figured they must have been awake because there were loads of visitors waiting in line. We waited and when we got into the exhibit, Bai and Zhen had just finished a nursing session. Bai went to one side of the exhibit, found some bamboo, and sat down to eat. Zhen followed her mom but didn’t join in the ‘brunch’ before ‘lunch’. Instead, Zhen rested on a log not facing her mom! It was very unusual to see her so still on the ground…ignoring Bai! Zhen did come over to Bai eventually, and walked across her mom’s tummy. Bai pushed her aside…we had to keep moving so I don’t know what the outcome was, but the time lapse shows the two bears eating together (around 11:45) We visited the Great Cats and came back to the pandas around 12:20. The keepers were attempting to entice Zhen to climb down from her tree so that they could pick up the old bamboo and set out lunch. Zhen declined 
The head keeper ended up giving Zhen treats while Zhen was still perched in the tree as another keeper set out lunch 
Little Miss is going to keep her keepers REAL busy when she takes the next step 
I think she is ready 
We got to visit the SDZ again today and naturally we visited Bai and Zhen three times. The zoo had quite a few visitors today…must be the Spring weather after a few days of winter rain
February 19th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I remember when Mei Lan at ZA was weaned. That was my first cub weaning, and, oh brother, I didn’t understand the process, didn’t understand WHY the mother and cub needed to be separated, and just generally didn’t get it! I believe it was our fellow poster “Margaret” (although I’m not sure — but THANK YOU!) who helped me understand why mother and cub must be separated.
Suzanne, these blog postings regarding ZZ’s weaning process are so informative and helpful to this particular human who, although she knows the process the SDZ uses to wean mother from cub is correct and prudent, still feels the tug at those heartstrings! The reward for this particular cam-watcher will be to see ZZ grow into a strong and independent sub-adult, and then adult Panda. Thank you and all of the staff at the SDZ for what you do for these endangered creatures.
On another note…(and I hope this is okay to post here)…my husband and I have two dogs. One was an unwanted lovely Cocker Spaniel we named Brutus (they couldn’t “show” him due to an “underbite”, so they didn’t “want” him) we purchased at 1-1/2 years old, who is now 12 years old; one American Eskimo (Nemo) (we took in at 2 years old, who is almost 4) as someone was taking him to a “kill” shelter; and, today, we were approved to actually, formally ADOPT a 2 year old 22-pound Schnauzer who was a stray, housed at the City Pound, remained unclaimed, and was rescued by a local kennel club. I even looked at ads around the state, trying to find an owner. No dice. So, tomorrow, we bring this beautiful animal home to meet the family. We have named him “Einstein” because he just looks smart! He was heartworm positive, but has had treatment, and we will continue to care for his special need(s). We will love and care for him, much like the SDZ does for all of the wonderful creatures there.
Here’s to saving the creatures we love, of all species!!!!
Sincerely,
Brutus, Nemo, Einstein, Cliff and KK
February 19th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Kristi in Dallas, I think you are very right about Bai being relieved not to have to share her boo anymore. Saw a tug of war this morning–ZZ had a very nice leafy stalk of boo by herself. Bai walked up, took it away from her, sat down on the other side of the tree and started enjoying, But ZZ wasn’t having this–she walked over and tried to take it back, but Bai held on tightly. A nice branch broke off and ZZ sat down next to Bai and started eating. Soon, Bai turned the boo so that it was in ZZ’s lap and ZZ started chewing on the other end from Bai. in a minute, Bai moved it again so that it was suddenly gone from ZZ. ZZ got up and tried to take it away from Bai, but Bai held on so tightly that the branch ZZ was holding on to broke and she fell backwards. Then it was on. ZZ tried to take it away from Bai, but Bai was masterful in pushing her away with that left paw without missing a chew. At one time, they were head to head just holding on and tugging. It was funny, and sad, and a little scary at times. ZZ finally gave up but not easily. The thing I just don’t understand, is that there was a whole pile of bamboo right there. Why did Bai take ZZs piece and why was it so important to ZZ to get it back. Is it a territorial thing?
February 19th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
#56 – Bobbie Wood – thanks for your “dedicated zoo goer & pandafan” observations. Those of us that have watched previous weanings (Tia Shan, Su Lin & Lani) know it’s a tad sad for a cub to find out their Moms have had it & want & need to alone for a while. The zoos are doing this to protect the cubs from Mom & not to have more cubs as has been suggested. We All know if Bai was not ready for this separation she would be trying to get to her cub. Chin up folks, all will be fine
February 19th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Wolong suffered from rare gale force winds 2/12/2009 (over 40 mile per hour) that damaged temporary shelters set up after 5/12/2008 earthquake.
February 19th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Lots of new photos (2/13/2009) of pandas born in 2008 on Panda Club Web site.
February 19th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
It’s 9:30PT and Zhennie is in the tree adjacent to the left exhibit. Does anyone know if Zhennie can see her mother Bai when she’s perched up there? She does seem comfortable sleeping in this location and she’s facing that direction. Maybe she can smell her mother over the wall?
I would have bet she would sleep on top of the “keebler” den. That was/is Susie’s favorite napping spot.
February 20th, 2009 at 8:56 am
I swear that in the early morning hours, the climbing structure for Su Lin in view #27 looks like a dinosaur skeleton.
February 20th, 2009 at 10:43 am
It’s 9 a.m. PST and Zhen Zhen is loving her burlap bag. At one time it looked like she was reclining on a ship’s deck chair. Is there anything special in it? Any scent?
Moderator’s note: The keepers like to put ground cloves and hay in the burlap sacks.
February 20th, 2009 at 10:59 am
In the wee hours of this morning, I was finally able to get a wonderful clear image on the three panda cams in Chengdu, China. I have a new gratitude, respect and admiration for the caring and knowledgeable staff at SDZ and NZ. As a relatively new panda fan and cam addict, I have been really feeling sorry for little ZZ, even though as a mother, and for that matter, the owner of several dogs that need a lot of attention, I can identify with Bai and her need for some “me” time. On two of the cams there were young cubs, probably no more than three or four months old, if that old. They were alone, on a wooden platform, or bridge. They had been sleeping and a keeper came in, put them on their backs and gave them a bottle. Of course, they stayed with them while they took the bottle and one of them seemed to be talking to the baby, but as soon as the bottle was finished the keeper left to feed other babies. There was no mother in sight. One of the babies had a milk mustache and was lying there chewing on its paw. Of course, I have no way of knowing if the cub has access to its mother, but from what I have been reading about how early they take the cubs away from their mothers, I would guess not. At that moment, I realized how fortunate little ZZ is to have been with her mother as long as she has, and that no matter how hard it is at first, that she will be fine because Bai has been such a wonderful mother, and SDZ staff have been caring and loving keepers. I remember when I first started watching panda cam how amazed I was at how loving and caring this big bear was with the tiny cub. She put some human mothers to shame. These little cubs in China will never know this no matter how much love they get from siblings or human keepers.
February 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Viola #58–I’ve always thought that ZZ wanted that particular stalk of bamboo just because it was in Bai’s grasp, so she could get Bai to engage with her, and Bai’s way of playing–or maybe asserting a little dominance–by grabbing the boo from ZZ. I’m sure there are lessons everywhere, but it still looks like play to me.
I have been a little scared the couple of times I’ve seen Bai sit on ZZ, but I think I still trust Bai not to squash what she has so lovingly raised for the past year and a half. They are bears, and bears play rougher than we do–and Bai is still training ZZ to be ready to face the world.
I’m sure there could come a time when the play turned more violent, and that’s obviously one of the points of the weaning process–to separate them before that point has been reached.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Hi! Got on the SDZ pandacam at around 11am PST (2pm EST) and saw Bai and ZZ having one of their great wrestling matches! Love it!! Don’t know how much longer we will be seeing that event between mom and daughter! Will try to catch them together as much as possible before the door to seperation closes between them permanently!
That will be a sad day but at the same time, it will be a very nice day for Bai to be herself and an empty nester for awhile, and ZZ can start living her own life and further develop that great personality of hers. Just noticed the newest article about the next step in the weaning process, so I’ll be reading that soon.
Well, gonna go for now. Will write back later on!
Chari Mercier
St. Pete, FL
February 20th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Panda lovers: This has been the most interesting and enjoyable conversation/blog I’ve read in a long time. It is rewarding that nearly all of you, although you are pining for ZZ being separated from Mom, really do understand that this is a natural and necessary process. made more humane by human interference. What is also reassuring, is that San Diego Zoo, Zoo Atlanta, Memphis Zoo, and National Zoo, with all their staff, keepers and curators, are helping the process of survival of a species, the Giant Panda. Mary #19, the “rush” is not to wanting to see yet another baby panda. The rush (the correct word is “urgency”), is to guarantee that these wonderful animals (whose wild population is severely endangered) have a place in the world 50, 100, 150 years and beyond from now. And I pray that a way can be found to safely introduce/re-indroduce these pandas to the wild. #19, you obviously do not understand the urgency of this, or perhaps you are the one who doesn’t care? I do take offense of that categorization of all of us pandafans around the world. Yes, it is your opinion, but it is a misguided opinion. Before you blog here again, please take the time to educate yourself about the panda and their human-induced plight to survive in the wild. Thank you for allowing my personal opinion. And kudos to all of you for defending SDZ’s panda keepers.
Also, thank you, San Diego Zoo, and all the other zoos, for the wonderful role you have undertaken in the survival of pandas and the other endangered species of the world. As someone previously said, “You totally rock”, and then some!”
February 21st, 2009 at 12:33 am
Thanks Viola for reporting the antics between Bai and ZZ. Our little Zhen is so persistent!
February 21st, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Hello to all of you at SD ZOO,
You mentioned about taking Zhen Zhen off the exhibit for little while. Do you know how long this will be? I knnow August is some months away but do you think the chance of Zhen Zhen being on exhibit is good:)
You guys are doing a wonderful job with the transition of Bai Yun and Zhen Zhen,Happy Trails To You All