To Twin or not To Twin
Posted at 9:06 pm August 26, 2007 by Suzanne HallWe have been very, very lucky here in San Diego to witness the birth of four healthy panda cubs. Each time, Bai Yun gave birth to a single infant and showed strong maternal instincts, so much so that staff need only sit by and watch her care for it. Bai Yun has always given the best of all possible circumstances. But in looking at the range of possibilities surrounding any cub birth, frankly, we have had it quite easy; pandas are certainly capable of more complex birthing scenarios than we have observed with Bai Yun.
As many of you know, pandas in managed cared routinely give birth to twins. In fact, they twin nearly 50 percent of the time–that’s a lot of panda cubs! However, in the wild, there are very few accounts of pandas rearing twins. A limited number of anecdotes of wild panda twins do exist, but in most cases they have not been verified. What is happening between the time of birth and weaning that is resulting in the loss of a twin?
There are many possible factors at play. For one, delayed implantation may be a culprit. Since panda cubs are thought to develop for only about 40 to 50 days once they implant, they have a very short window to go from a tiny group of undifferentiated cells to becoming a cub capable of making it “on the outside.” If the trigger that leads to implantation causes one potential twin to implant early, and the other a few days later, then at birth one cub could be more underdeveloped or weaker than its twin. As a result, it may not be strong enough to survive.
Another possibility is that it is just pretty near impossible for the panda mother to care for two. You who have watched Bai Yun with any of her cubs are aware of how intense a period the neonatal stage is for her. She is constantly cradling her infant, foregoing her own nourishment while she licks, comforts, and maintains her cub. She uses both paws to hold it, aid it in nursing bouts, and snuggle it close to her for warmth. Imagine how much harder it would be with two cubs. She would need more effort and probably more paws! Two demanding infants needing her constant care might prove too difficult a task for even our super mom to handle.
Which is not to say she might not try. Several females in managed care have been observed giving it their best when they give birth to multiples. Some may even hold twins in their arms for a day or two before giving up. Frequently, these mothers are more prone to exhaustion, as keeping up with the demands of two cubs leaves them less time to rest quietly. Frankly, an exhausted mom is more likely to make mistakes, and historically, exhausted or stressed moms have been known to roll over onto a cub while they sleep.
In Wolong, there is always an effort to remove a twin from its mother’s care as soon as it is set down or rejected by its mother. The cub is then whisked away for intensive care in the nursery and, if healthy, will ultimately see its mother again when twin swapping commences. However, before such techniques were implemented, most twin litters resulted in one live cub and one that did not make it. Bai Yun is herself a product of a twin litter in which she is the only remaining “cub.”
We are pleased for our colleagues in Vienna that a cub has been born to them and that their female appears to be taking good care of her neonate. I know many of you have expressed concern over the loss of the twin cub she apparently had. Though I share a disappointment over the loss of the twin, I hope the information above will help you to place this loss in the proper context and understand this can happen anywhere you find pandas: in the wild or in managed care. It is part of the mystery of panda reproduction as a whole, something we continue to try to unravel with our research both here and in the wilds of Foping, China.
Suzanne Hall is a senior research technician with the Giant Panda Unit of Applied Animal Ecology/San Diego Zoo.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Scroll to the end to leave a comment. Pinging is not allowed.
August 26th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Thank you for the info, Suzanne! (I see you’ve got the late shift tonight.) While I agree that the SDZ panda team has been lucky, I think the SDZ pandas have been very fortunate as well, to have such wonderful, dedicated, talented people watching over them!
I just had a great opportunity to watch the cub nursing for quite a while, so sweet. Then, when Bai laid down on her side to sleep, the cub was on her right paw and sort of petting Bai’s big paw with it’s little one. The cub was getting pretty active and Bai finally put her other paw over the cub. Apparently our intrepid cub was not ready to be quieted, because with it’s two little forelegs, it pushed Bai’s paw straight up in the air! Someone commented about it’s strong forelegs in the last blog post and, whoever it was, I hope they got to see this little event!
It was nice to have a glimpse of Gao Gao on the cam earlier today, too! Even if he was just sacked out in his den amid piles of bamboo, looking for all the world like he was sleeping off a wild night!
August 26th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Suzanne, thank you again for giving us perspective and insight into the mysterious panda world. We are very fortunate to have you as our teacher. I have been enjoying watching Bai and Bright Star. They always bring a smile to my face. At the same time I grow a bit sadder everyday knowing that Mei Sheng will soon be on his way to China. Is it true that he will be taken off exibit soon to begin his crate training? If so, when? Will he be seen on pandacam? I am trying to work out a trip down to SD. Much love and thanks to the panda team and most certainly to Bai and baby!
August 27th, 2007 at 2:50 am
Thank you Suzanne for that excellent info! I am happy they have one surviving cub in Vienna. Why do pandas tend to ” twin” 50% of the time in managed care? Any ideas? It has been for great to watch Bai and ” Bright Star” . It has been a miracle watching the cub develop! Bai is a great Mom! Jane
August 27th, 2007 at 4:41 am
Thank you so much, Suzanne, for fascinating information on twinning in pandas. It was interesting to learn that one twin may implant earlier than the other. I guess that would account for the difference in size between some twins that we’ve heard about. Like it or not, it seems that having both twins survive is the exception not the rule.
Fortunately, as you say, Bai Yun has not had to deal with that situation.
August 27th, 2007 at 5:20 am
Hello Suzanne,
Thank you for the very interesting weblog you provided us. It actually confirms what I thought at first. The second twin might have been just too small to be able to survive, even with the best of care provided by it’s mother. Also, I seem to have read on the internet that after a quick examination, it was determined that the dead cub was just to small to be able to survive… So it might have died as a stillborn or very little time after the birth. Also, it was said that the Vienna Zoo delivery was a surprise, and that the keepers knew nothing about it until after, when they started hearing the young one squawk…. So I guess what happened was unavoidable. Also, I do remember that Bai Yun has previously been confirmed to carry twins but never carried her two infants to term. Guess nature is running it’s course here!
However, I do have a question concerning the twins. I can’t remember exactly but I think it was mentionned somewhere that twins were born a week apart. Is that true? If so, how far apart was the longest separation between twin cub births? I understand that twin births not on the day must be very rare, but I know that it happened for human twins, born at least 2 months apart… Of course, that is an exception, but I was wondering if the same thing happened to pandas.
On another note, I woke up late yesterday, and thought I’d check the cam right away. And what did I see? The cub all alone, squirming! Now that was a nice way to wake up! LOL!!!
Anyways, off to work I go, and if lucky, to a few glances at the pandacam too!
Have a nice day everyone, and thank you again Suzanne and all the great staff at SDZ.
August 27th, 2007 at 6:36 am
Black, brown, grizzly and polar bears all have multiple cubs and successfully care for multiple cubs. If a panda is part of the bear family, why is it so difficult for them to care for more than one cub? I read where Hua Mei attempted to care for both, but her caregiver said it was too much for her.
Just to let everyone know, an anchor on MSNBC referred to the cub as a ” rodent” . For shame!!
Moderator’s note: Suzanne talks about multiple cubs in other bear species in her iZoofari Chat: http://www.sandiegozoo.org/wordpress2/2007/uncategorized/izoofari-chat-panda-cubs-first-week/
August 27th, 2007 at 6:42 am
WOW!
I didnt now it is that hard for a panda to take care of two cubs!.
Although it would be amazing if Bai Yun had TWINS!
August 27th, 2007 at 7:37 am
Suzanne, thanks for the explanation of the life of twins immediately after birth. Bai Yun has taken exemplary care of each of her cubs. If her twin cubs had ever made it to birth, they would have had similar treatment as those in Wolong. Since that experience has not yet arisen, we don’t know how Bai Yun would have faired. She appears to be able to get rest for herself to continue to care for and nurse her cubs. This one is thriving it appears.
August 27th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Thanks Suzanne for your instructional comments on this post. I very much enjoy reading the historical and continued updates about Mei and her current cub.
August 27th, 2007 at 8:23 am
awww – looking at the cubie this morning – looks like a miniature Panda Bear!!
August 27th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Suzanne – wasn’t Mei Sheng a twin, and didn’t the Zoo continue to watch for the twin for nearly 48 hours after his birth before calling it off? And Su Lin was a twin, too, except in her case, the second fetal heartbeat stopped a few days before she was born.
August 27th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Im really hoping that the 2007 cub is a boy!
August 27th, 2007 at 11:39 am
How many years will Bai Yun be allowed to breed and so how many cubs might she have in her lifetime?
August 27th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Chet #11,
Both Su Lin and Mei Sheng were twins in utero, but we never observed a second cub born in either of those pregnancies. In one case, we documented the degradation of one fetus prior to birth, so we assume Bai Yun’s body reabsorbed the dead fetus, something carnivores have been known to do.
August 27th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Thanks to the Web Team for ” creating” a solution to the Panda Cam power outage dilema and providing us with on-going coverage of the pandas, especially little cubmuffin who is showing it’s spreadeagle round belly and tail section for the Meerkats at 12:42 PM PDT. It sure is a healthy and cute little cub.
August 27th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Off topic slightly, the San Diego Union Tribune had a cute article in this Saturday’s paper about the new member of our panda family – and specifically about the youngest ” child” in a family. They were remembering back to when Hua Mei was born, and all the hoopla that went with that event. All the excitement and daily updates in the paper, the endless news coverage, the launch of the panda cam, etc. They noted that even by the time Su Lin was born – alot of the fuss had dwindled – some excitement – but nothing like the first born. Kinda like my little sister and me – where there’s lots of photos of me as a baby, toddler, first day of school, but not so much with my sister. Sorta sad. Luckily, it’s still exciting for the SDZ staff and all of us ” pandaholics” still logging onto the pandacam. Keep up the amazing work – I personally with never get over the excitement of a new chubby, little cubby!
August 27th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
P.S. It appears to be trying to ” roll over.” It opened its mouth 7 times in 1 minute and looked like it was verbalizing. As the minute dragged on, it opened its mouth more frequently. At the end of the minute, Bai Yun came into the den quickly and picked it up and held it in her forepaws. After a quick bath, it looks like it is nursing, so it must have been hungry. Poor mom, not much time to herself these days.
August 27th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Suzanne, many thanks for explaining the ” mystery” of twin births. Pandas are such amazing creatures and, again,
nature always thinks of the optimum, i. e. a panda mother on her own best caring for only one cub. As mentioned in some blogs SDZ has got an excellent team to take care of their panda population, which I wholeheartedly agree to. And last not least Bai Yun who over the years has been gaining lots of experience in raising her cubs.
The first-time panda mom Yang Yang in Vienna Zoo still has to gain this knowlege, however, she seems to follow all her instincts in providing the best care for her offspring. Let’s hope that the critical stage for the cub will soon be over.
Apparently Long Hui and Yang Yang came from China to Vienna Zoo as a ” couple” and have been staying together since then. Suzanne, what is the reason that female and male can be together all the time, without engaging in a fight, except for the current situation where Yang Yang is very secretive about her (their cub) preventing Long Hui to come close. If he could approach the den would the motherly instinct take over to protect her cub from him or would she perhaps allow him to come closer? Considering Gao Gao and Bai Yun always staying in separate rooms except for that very moment every second year I find this situation at Vienna Zoo
quite extraordinary. Bai Yun’s baby is absolutely gorgeous and growing by the day I find. Su Lin is a real lady now and I feel that she certainly is aware of it. Thanks to all of you for all your efforts bringing the amazing life of the pandas into our ” living rooms” , much appreciated.
August 27th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I agree with Cheryl #16 that each and every panda birth is to be treasured and applauded. Each precious cub is another reinforcement that our beloved pandas will survive; the more media coverage, the better will be the chances for more people to become involved in saving these beautiful creatures! Only yesterday, I happily watched the NZ’s Tai Shan, throwing himself down a hill with wild abandon, then climbing back up to do it all over again…!
Little Bright Star/CubMuffin is definitely more visible as he/she grows with each passing day; it won’t be too long before Bai’s attempts to completely cover him/her with her paws, will be an act of futility…and great for pandaholics worldwide…!
Thank you SO much, SDZ staff, for all you do to keep our pandas healthy & happy…we are grateful beyond words!
August 27th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
I for one is still very excited about this little cub and with modern technolgy like the pandacam, my passion for the newest addition grows even more. Not a day goes by do I not thing of him/her. When I get a chance,I am constantly online checking it’s every movement and updates. Thanks for keeping us up to date and giving us the continous coverage we are all craving.
August 27th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Do wild and managed care panda mothers differ in mothering behaviors? Do they have to be taught how to take a panda cub, or is it all instinct? Thanks
August 27th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Thanks Suzanne for explaining about the difficulty in raising panda twins – it’s too bad that many were ready to find fault with the Vienna Zoo for the death of one of the cubs. It’s difficult to raise one cub let alone two – but Bai & the SDZ seem to have things in hand for raising healhty cubbies (but luck at a lot to with it)
I got a great glimpse of ” Bright Star” alone this afternoon – she was squriming all over with mouth wide open apparently telling mommy ” I’m hungry-get back here & take of me”
Again thanks for all your info, love & care of these great, beloved animals.
August 27th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Wow–such wonderful pictures around 6:30 this evening (Monday)! I was shocked at how big cubbie is getting. (Is it too embarrassing to admit I was talking baby talk to the screen?)
I have been fascinated to read all the updates & listen to the chats. You all do such a great job of keeping us panda fans informed. I really enjoyed your entry today about the twin issue.
And, finally! a cubbie that might be close enough to visit!
August 27th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
I’ve gone back to the NZ website to see how Tai & our ” Bright Star” compare during their first couple of weeks. I found some intersting info on their dens. ” Some panda cam viewers have wondered how Mei’s den compares to a den she might have in the wild. In China’s Wolong Reserve, pandas make their dens in large hollow conifers, with a diameter of about three feet. But elsewhere, where trees are absent due to logging, pandas use rock caves as dens, with a little bedding of twigs, for the cub’s first 100 days. Then they move to areas of dense bamboo. Scientists have measured the floor space of several tree dens used in the past: 39 by 43 inches, 35 by 41 inches, and 35 by 37 inches; one cave den measured 33 by 39 inches.”
August 27th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Thank you indeed Suzanne. I was trying to find something about the Vienna panda cub and it appeared to be next to impossible and I hadn’t heard there had been a twin. As delightful as two panda babies would be, I would prefer to have one healthy baby and one healthy mother. Bai Yun is an incredible mother. It just melts your heart to see her turning the cub this way and that and holding, dare I say ” her” close. Okay we don’t know yet what the gender is but that baby is loved. I don’t care what some people say it is just plain obvious that Bai Yun loves her baby. Okay it is instinctual love but humans do that as well. We may simply care more because we are going to have them with us forever whereas a panda cub grows up and out on its own fairly fast.
I like that nickname Little Bright Star. I know I am very proud of every single member of the staff at the Zoo because we make good baby pandas, with a lot of help from Bai Yun of course, and they are such beautiful babies. Our girls may be some of the best mothers ever but we’ll have to wait for Su Lin to go to China and have her first cub. Hua Mei is certainly a star.
In an aside thank you staffers for letting us know about the electricity problem. We know about the power failure but I had been wondering why the panda.cam photos were really dark lately. Now we know. We are nothing if not patient and we’ll just have to look a bit closer until the cam is up and running good again.
August 27th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
What great detail about panda twin cub situations. Hopefully one of our 4 panda adults here in the States will have a twin birth in the future. I can’t even begin to imagine what it would be like to watch 2 youngsters romping around!
August 27th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Great footage of Bai and the baby between 9:00 and 9:45 p.m Monday night. Bai rolled the baby off her nose so they were face-to-face for a long time. How much can the baby see at this point?
August 27th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Our little baby was hilarious tonight on the PandaCam. Bai Lin was sleeping on her side with her paws out in front of her and somehow the cub had ended up just out of her arms, above her paw, facing her face. And even though we know its eyes aren’t open yet, as it wriggled it seemed to be saying, ” Hey Mom, wake up! I’m over here! Hey! I need a cuddle! Over here!”
August 28th, 2007 at 5:43 am
Thanks Suzanne for the information. As always you explained it so well. And my mind is put to ease about the various twin situations. Sometimes we put too much human emotion to the pandas. The mom is so busy with the one cub she probably has little time to even think about the twin. At times ” nature’s way” seems harsh. But, it is definitely true that we are happy for one healthy cub and a healthy mother. And, thank God, we have had both many times at SDZ and in the US.
Bright Star certainly is growing well and seems VERY strong and healthy. My computer was ” sick” for a few days and when I turned PandaCAM back on, there was Bright Star bigger than 3 days ago. (Or at least it seemed that way.) I’m looking forward to finding out if the cub is a boy or girl because it is difficult to write about him/her without knowing which pronoun is correct.
It’s amazing that soon we will be celebrating one month since the birth. I have my celebration panda-head ” hat” and streamers ready!!! How about all of you? — Joy
August 28th, 2007 at 5:58 am
Peggy #25, If you go to google and type in Vienna Zoo you can find info. I went to The Star sight to see a picture and they had acouple of sights about the twin.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:34 am
#24, Maureen, thanks for sharing the info about panda dens in the wild. It helps us to understand how and why the dimensions at the various zoos were chosen for the captive panda mothers-to-be. It also explains that the den at the Vienna zoo is not ” too small” and is fashioned similar to the one at SDZ and NZP. They showed pictures of the one in Memphis on videos before the miscarriage. It was shaped like a hollowed out tree trunk. The only zoo that did not seem to have a special ” den” is Atlanta, although they did use what appeared to be a smaller square shaped room with limited access for Mei Lan’s birth and development. I did not get to see the area where the den is when I visited ZA earlier in August. Mei Lan obviously thrived since she has surpassed all other US cubs in weight at 11 months, and she hasn’t even turned 1 year old yet. That is next week’s big event.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:53 am
#31 If you look at the ZA faq page you can see a floor plan of the panda building.
I cannot believe how much Bright Star has grown in these last few days. Now whenever I check the cam the cubbie is always partially visible.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:21 am
How adorable!…right now the cubmuffin is curled upside down, between Bai Yun’s paw and cheek, sleeping like an adult panda with its paw over its face.
I must echo what so many others have said: watching a newborn panda cub and its mother is ALWAYS thrilling. It never gets routine. So thank you again, SDZ, for providing us with pandacam, and all your other helpful information, all these years. Each day on pandacam is a new adventure–no matter who the ” star” is that day.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:10 am
Mei Lan has found a creative way to do somersaults. She gets on the side log and throws herself toward the hammock, thus doing a somersault and landing in the hammock. Quite cute and ingenius. Then she climbed back up on the corner and rested on the log and decided to taste the tips of Lun Lun’s long bamboo stalks. Reminds me of Su Lin about this time last year and in Dec-Feb when she would sit down by the log near Bai Yun, leaned back and ate bamboo just like a miniature of her mom. It is amazing how fast panda cubs grow up and move from one stage to the next.
All the comments about the scooting cub in and out of Bai Yun’s presence remind me of last Fall watching Mei Lan trying to crawl. She couldn’t get a grip with her back legs on the slippery concrete floor. Hopefully Bright Star will have better success with the wonderful bamboo mat that Bai Yun has made for him/her.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
#26 Candy in Iowa: If you go to youtube and type ” panda twin” in the search bar, you will be able to see the twin pandas in Japan who were born last December. They are so cute together and yes, they are a handful, but the mama panda is pretty laid back. The twins are a delight to watch, especially at their age right now – 8 months. Enjoy!!
Looks like the SDZ ‘little cub’ will not be little for very long – you’d think he/she was in competition for fastest growing panda cub! It’s great to see her/him looking very much like a panda now – or should that be ‘mini-panda?” just like every other pandaholic, I’m not getting much done – too much going on in that den in San Diego. Thanks to all the SDZ caregivers/watchers for the great education we are getting on these lovely beings.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
When I watch that darling little creature wriggling around, I so wish we had sound as well as sight. I can imagine the loud squawking that is coming from that tiny mouth. Also, I am amazed at how quickly she is growing!!
August 28th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I love watching the pandas sleep with their paw over their eyes. I remember reading and writing comments that people were concerned about light levels possibly bothering LunLun when Mei Lan was tiny. We had not ” witnessed” the early days/weeks of a newborn panda cub before. I noticed quickly that pandas at all 4 US zoos routinely sleep like that both indoors and outdoors. It doesn’t seem to be a function of light levels, but more of comfort. To know that the tiny 3 week old cub does that too reinforces that it must be comfort as well as something instinctive. I wonder if there is any reason for it in the wild, since they inhabit thick vegetation in mountain forests much of the time. Goes back to my question yesterday about where adult pandas in the wild choose to sleep? In trees, under vegetation, under logs or rocks, or out in the open???
August 28th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Wow! Little chubby cubby is growing so fast – and starting to get rather squirmy. Pretty soon he/she will be making ” hay angels” (similar to snow angels) trying to scoot around on the floor!
August 28th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Margaret, I always get tickled watching them try to walk, I call them ” fish feet” I can’t believe Mei Lan is going to be a year old next week. Got a look at our Bright Star and my how big our cubbie is getting . I love this time of the year with all the new life and watching them grow. I saw 4 beautiful white tigers born in Jordan ,the picture was gorgeous.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
WOW! In the cam view of Bai Yun holding and licking cubmuffin at 1:23 PDT, it looks so big, like it might have doubled in size in a week. Either it is curled up or it really has grown a lot in the past few days. She was holding it in her paws like a ball, and it filled up both paws.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Thanks for the tip #35 Pandafan. Reminds me of watching all the US pandas pounce and climb on their mothers. At least if there are twin cubs, they can play with each other while ” Mom” gets to eat and rest.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Suzanne, in your opinion, which is more valuable to the endangered species pool, a female or male offspring?
August 28th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
9:30 edt and cubmuffin is looking like it is trying to ” motor” around the den! I can’t wait to see it chasing mom around the sun room!! There has been some awesome camera work today. Many wonderful views of Bai Yun nursing and tending her little one!! Now that cubmuffin is so much easier to see, we can really get a feel for the tender loving care she is giving her cub!!
Thank you so very much – every day for this absolutely incredible opportunity!! Keep up the good work – oh, and tell us all soon whether we have a little girl or boy….will be so much more fun to talk about her or him instead of ” it” !! : )
August 28th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
#35 Pandafan: Thanks so much! That was a delight to watch! Poor Mom does not stand a chance to get any rest with those 2 ! Youtube has some of the BEST videos and the Atlanta family stars in alot of the best ones!
August 28th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Thanks for info @panda twins on youtube -try to imagine 2 Tai (holy terrors) hassling poor mommy – she has the patience of a saint – how does she get any sleep?
August 29th, 2007 at 7:46 am
Why is there no photo club? I downloaded a picture of Su Lin and Bai Yun taken by a zoo visitor that is so good it should be in National Geographic. It would be great if the zoo posted pictures of the pandas taken by visitors.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:49 am
I am eagerly anticipating the possibility that our chubby cubbie’s next exam might be tomorrow, and that we will know for sure if Bright Star is a boy or a girl…………I can’t wait!
He/she is an absolutely enchanting panda cub, and a delight to watch grow before our eyes!
Many thanks to pandafan #35 about the twin cubs in Japan on YouTube; they are adorable & do remind me of two holy terrors (Tai) as Maureen #45 said…I stil love watching him; he is a panda who thoroughly loves LIFE…!
August 29th, 2007 at 7:53 am
Thank you for such an informative blog. Your insight is invaluable to those of us who are trying to learn more and more about these precious animals! I am glad the bears in captivity have human help to care for any additional offspring. Maybe some day we’ll have a twin birth in the United States. Thanks again for all you do for us pandaholics!
On another note does anyone else get anxious when Bai goes back into the den and can’t find the cub? A little while ago she completely covered up cubmuffin with the floor covering before she finally found it. I don’t remember seeing this behavior with Su Lin or Mei Sheng. Can any of the staff members explain why Bai is doing this?
August 29th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Just caught the cub rolling over–so cute! This seems to be one energetic baby.
Also, thanks to P Wong for the hilarious explanation of the cub’s squawks in the last post. You are a great interpreter of cubmuffinese.
August 29th, 2007 at 9:31 am
I’m not certain that Bai ” can’t” find the cub. Is it possible she is fluffing up the straw and making the cub less visible. Besides it is also a way of getting the cub to vocalize and is a way for her to teach it to vocalize when she returns so she knows it is OK.
I am glad for Bai’s sake that Mei Sheng was only one cub, and that he was not the ” holy terror” that Tai Shan was. Mei Xiang deserves a break and a calm quiet cub like Bai’s #4 the next time, hopefully this time in 2008.
Are there any discussions/plans about using Gao Gao’s sperm for artificial insemination with Mei Xiang next year? If so he could be reproducing himself each year.
August 29th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Margaret#50 – NZ’s Mei Xang was inseminated with Gao Gao’s sperm this year (April 2007) and unfortunately, no cub resulted. I was soooo hopeful, knowing what a great donor Gao Gao would be. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed for 2008 at the NZ.
I also watched ” Tai the terrible” grow up. What a handful he was. Right from the beginning, he was ” all boy” . I remember checking in on the pandacams for both Su Lin and Tai Shan. Sun Lin was so much the little lady and Tai Shan was very rough and tumble. And both were, and still are, such a joy to watch. It is truly addicting to watch them grow and I love every minute of it!
August 29th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Is Mei Sheng still on exhibit? I rarely seen any camera shots of him anymore, which may be a result of the challenges from the power outage last week. Just checking because I want to see as much of him as I can while we still have him in the USA. Unfortunately I won’t get to come in September to see him in person like I had hoped. Besides, based on earlier comments, it sounds like he will be going off exhibit soon to begin his crate training.
How soon will you be able to move Gao Gao to the front so you can move Mei Sheng to the back. You mentioned that you had to leave Gao where he is so as not to stress Bai Yun as he passes by.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Thank goodness for ” Tai the terror” . The media adores Tai Shan, and he has generated a lot of attention to the plight of the panda. I love all the pandas equally, but there is no doubt Tai Shan is special. I work on behalf of Elephants out here on the west coast and we are all pretty much ignored by the big guns in New York. If you noticed, Tai Shan made it above the fold in the Washington Post on his second birthday. If the San Diego Zoo were located in New York or Washington, they would be in the news all the time. However, I don’t feel sorry for them because they live in one of the greatest cities in America.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
I just about fell off my chair laughing… about 3:20 PST Bai was gone and baby was on it’s back. The cam zoomed in, and then, looking for clues about ‘him vs her’ zoomed in some more… and then more… and then more! By the time they were all the way zoomed, you couldn’t even see the black fur from the legs! You could see tail and tummy and ‘private parts’ area…I hope this helps the announcement that we are all eagerly awaiting. I’m still laughing! I guess baby is ready to be identified as he or she… it was certainly in an appropriate position for an expert to make the call. ROFL – that picture is going to stay with me for a VERY long time!!!
August 29th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
To Margaret (#52) I was at the zoo this morning and Mei was on exhibit. He was sleeping peacefully, looking very sweet and content. I was happy to see Su Lin down from her tree and sleeping on her ” hut” with one arm draped casually over a branch! She’s adorable and getting bigger each time I see her!
Looking forward to news about baby’s next exam – I hope it’s soon!
August 29th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
This might be a roundabout way to get some news. I have been trying to find an update on the panda cub in the Shoenbrunn Tiergarten in Vienna. One of the Viennese newspapers mentioned that the panda keepers there are in touch with the panda keepers at the SD zoo, since you all are so experienced….. So guys! fess up already….how IS that cub doing?
Good to see that SD’s expertise is once again working great….not only here but in Austria as well.
August 29th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
After 2 days without a glipmse of Bright Star I finally was able to see how much our cub has grown this week. Am hoping to find out the sex & another health update tomorrow. Speaking of health checks saw the greatest video on Youtube of Yang (ZA) with his keeper getting his ears, mouth etc. checked through the mesh as he munched treats. Amazing how these huge bears can be trained (& Yang is a BIG BEAR).
Maureen
August 29th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
I was just watching time-lapse from Tuesday, 8/28, and saw the ” running” mentioned earlier. The poor cubmuffin couldn’t get traction on the slippery flooring no matter how hard it tried. Reminded me of the weeks that Mei Lan went through strengthening her legs in October and November last year. I thought she would never get her back legs up under her. All of the sudden one day she did, and she has been off and running ever since. After that day Lun Lun spent a lot of time chasing after her and bringing her back to ” safety.” Lun still tries to protect her in new situations that concern her, but Mei Lan is now too big and strong to have much affect on her. The most Lun can do now is knock her with her head or forepaw.
If the video shots of Mei Sheng and Su Lin at the Howdy gate still exist, is it possible to make them into a video for us to see. I never got to see them together, and since they have lost interest in each other, or at least she has in him, it is not likely that they will been seen together at the gate any more. The description of him holding on to the wire mesh and starring at her last week was price-less. I can just picture the longing look in my mind. He sure does like contact with others.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
I love all the comments about Tai Shan, who truly re-defined the term ” pandamonium!” I was riveted to the NZ webcam for many months, watching that little dickens grow up. Also, big thanks to the poster who directed us all to the panda twins videos on YouTube, they are awesome! Mei Lan is still incredibly entertaining as well, if you can catch her when she’s not sleeping. And it’s very interesting to see what different parenting styles each of the momma pandas has.
OUR baby is growing like a weed and unbelievably adorable and it’s such fun to be able to watch so much of it. As always, huge gratitude to the entire SDZ team!!
Last night Bai and the baby were lying side by side, same poses, every time Bai would re-adjust, baby would too. I just feel so fortunate to be able to witness this amazing process!
August 29th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
#54 Suzanne (the other one), I’m wondering if there needs more intervention in order to determine gender at this age for a panda than just merely viewing from above. In other words, I’m wondering if it requires slight pressure applied to the surrounding genital area to reveal the pertinent organ. At least this was what I did when differentiating newborn rabbits…
August 29th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
I agree about the differences in personality in the different US cubs. Tai was and still is a Holy Terror to watch and must have drove Mei Xiang crazy! Su was so independent and calm in comparison and it sounds like Bright Star may be also. From videos I’ve seen on Youtube, I’d say all 3 in Atlanta are wild and crazy! Go to that site and search for Yang Yang or Mei Lan or Lun Lun. ANY video by LCNessie is set to music and most are a RIOT to watch!
CHECK THESE OUT!!!
August 30th, 2007 at 6:23 am
Southern California is experiencing a heat wave right now and you can certainly tell by Bai. At 6:25 am So Cal time Bai’s cub was literally sleeping an arm’s length away. Bai still has contact with her cub, but just barely.
August 30th, 2007 at 6:42 am
Barbara #42,
I think more important than gender is the issue of genetics… the more genetically rare an individual, the better it is that they produce offspring. So a cub of any gender is important when Gao Gao is the father! Genetics aside, there are benefits to having each gender: 1- males that engage in appropriate sexual behavior in captivity have been historically few in number, so if Bai Yun can raise males with good sexual skills that is a plus; and, 2- females are the bottleneck to increases in numbers for any small population of mammals, so female infants are always good news to any endangered species.
Lisa #48,
Bai Yun does not panic when returning to the den. The fluffing of nesting material is something she has done with each of her cubs, all the way back to Hua Mei… although the first time she did it we were concerned that she might injure the cub, we no longer worry because this is part of her behavioral repertoire and she has never injured her offspring. We don’t know exactly why she does this. There are several possibilities: the den is dark and she can’t see the cub, so relies on her nose and ears to find it in the den. After a time, the den may become saturated with the scent of cub and it may be harder to find it, so by shuffling the material she may cause the cub to vocalize, thus allowing her to zero in on it. OR, perhaps it is simply den maintenance, freshening the den material to prevent mold or dust buildup. I don’t know the answer, but I suspect the latter.
Margaret #52,
Mei Sheng is currently on exhibit, and will likely remain there for some time, as his crate training will be conducted from the front exhibit area.
August 30th, 2007 at 10:02 am
Odd camera angle at the moment . . . could there be a cub exam in progress?
August 30th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Candy #61 – You are absolutely right – LCNessie’s videos of the Atlanta pandas are so much fun to watch. I couldn’t tear myself away from the computer. Thoroughly enjoyed them. Thanks for sharing.
Rose
August 30th, 2007 at 11:32 am
It’s 11:30 a.m, SD time and it si sooooooooooo beautiful to watch big momma and her little one sleeping..Sigh!
So, anything new about the gender…I am so anxious to know it like all of us, panda cub fans!!!!
Go back to the cam…
Take care everyone
Sophie
August 30th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Thanks, Suzanne, #63 for all the updates. Glad to hear that visitors can still see Mei Sheng, and he them. I imagine he will notice a difference in the number of visitors he has when he gets to Wolong. Although Wolong is a big tourist ” attraction,” there are not likely to be thousands of visitors flocking his way all the time.
Is it also possible that crate training him in the front exhibit area is a good idea because of the abundance of noise and visual distractions that will mimick those he might encounter at the airports and when he arrives at Wolong? Since you went through this with Hua Mei when Mei Sheng was still a small cub, you have been through this routine before.
Are they planning a reception for him like Hua Mei got when she arrived? It looked like quite a diplomat had arrived, and she truely is one.
How many cubs born outside of China have gone to Wolong per the ” loan” agreements? Since she was the first cub in the US old enough to go, she is also the only one so far. How many other countries have had cubs born to pandas on loan? Japan, and Austria, and who else? How many cubs do they anticipate receiving this year? Since Tai Shan is staying in DC until 2009, there will be at least one less.
How many cubs have been born around the world this year? Last year there were lots of reports published, but this year I have only seen announcements of individual births, no cumulutive reports. Since I read that there were some females in Chengdu and Wolong that just recently came into estrus, it would seem that there may be many births still to go in 2007. Several cubs were born in September 2006, including Mei Lan, so news will continue to come I guess.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Yes, there are new pictures posted of an August 30 exam! Anxiously awaiting the video and commentary!! Not that it makes a bit of difference whether that sweet, chubby baby is a boy or a girl, but like everyone else, I am just dying to know!
And, on another topic, I have been a big fan of LCNessie’s youtube videos for quite some time. LC, if you are checking in, I just want to say how much we all appreciate your terrific efforts!!
Okay, SDZ, we are all waiting for the news!
August 30th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
I just checked the news link – and yes – there was another exam performed on our little chubby, cubby – and she/he sure is a beauty! And very strong too – you can see our little one lifting itself on its front legs – so, so cute. Just waiting for them to update the text to reveal the big news and give more details on the weight, size, etc. But, oh my gosh, our little one is not so little anymore. Way to go mama – you’re doing a tremendous job as usual – keep up the good work. Kisses to our baby!
Moderator’s note: An iZoofari Chat about the second exam is now posted at http://www.sandiegozoo.org/wordpress2/2007/uncategorized/izoofari-chat-panda-cubs-2nd-exam/
August 30th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Suzanne #54,
I saw that too. LOL. It was VERY funny. Still couldn’t make it out.
August 30th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
I absolutely LOVE the ” little old man” hair on our cubbie in the most recent exam video! He/she is certainly growing by leaps and bounds. Next week’s exam can’t come soon enough for me.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Thanks, Candy #61 for sharing about the YouTube videos by LCNessie, as I had never seen them before; they are teriffic…! Yang Yang training with Jay is amazing, and, yes, he is a huge, handsome bear! There is another one of him playing with what looks like a large trash can, tied to a branch of one of the indoor trees…it is nothing short of hysterical…!
How on earth can we wait another week without knowing if precious chubby cubbie is a boy or a girl? It was hard enough making it through until today, and then to learn that the vets still have no firm determination as to this eagerly awaited news, is agonizing, to say the least! It must be just as difficult for the staff, however, but we do know deep down that they certainly need to be sure of Bright Star’s gender before announcing it to the public.
The good news is the cub had really grown in a week, and appears to be very healthy due to Bai’s excellent milk & loving care. It is a joy & privilege to watch this relationship on the panda cam; thank you everyone for giving us this wonderful opportunity…!
August 30th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Well, guess we have to wait another week to find out the sex of Bright Star, who seems to be doing well Star – but thanks to Suzanne for answering many of our questions – especially Bai’s habit of ” fluffing” her den. I realize that SDZ is having trouble with their panda cam but have been unable to see or cubbie all day. I didn’t know that SDZ had a panda cam so Tai Shan was the first cub I watched from day one – guess because it’s the National Zoo, they had 2 cams to catch every move that Tai made that I spent too many hours watching. Plus, after all their failed attempts for a live panda birth their daily updates included every move made by Mei Xiang & Tai.
It has been fun watching each cub – Tai (the terror), Su Lin (laid back) – in fact a disappointment to us – we visited the SDZ in Feb. 06 only to find SuLin high up in her tree- hard to see. If Daddy Gao hadn’t gotten up to roam around I would have been crushed. And MeiLan seems to be a mix of all our cubs – her daddy, Yang, seems to be another ” terror”
But am grateful to the SDZ panda cam site for an occasional glimpse of our newest wonder.
August 30th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
OH NO! Not another week to know the sex! This is going to drive us nuts! Bright Star is obviously very strong and healthy. She(?) can hold herself up so well on those front legs. What a blessing to have another one in such great health. Bai – you are awesome!
August 30th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Just wondering if SDZ would consider to postpone the date of Mei Sheng’s leaving for China. I wish he could join his little sibling’s 100-birthday celebration in around early November.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:36 am
Hi everyone. Did you see me, I am getting bigger everyday. Mom said i did very good and that I am very brave. Dr Geoff was very nice to me and was very gentle. My color is really starting to get darker and as for my hair yes it is still wild, even with mom licking and washing me it won’t stay down guess that will change soon. I can hold my head alot higher now. Mom told me more of the nice things you say about me and her and all the nice Drs. and of course Suzanne and Mr.P. Wong,and Miss Margaret. I hope a get a peek at my brother before he leaves for China.,I am anxious to meet everyone and find out my real name, I hope it’s Bright Star, I really like it. till next time keep looking at me.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:44 am
I could’t believe how big our cubbie got and how much darker the color is. I watched the video this morning and also the pictures. It seem like cubbie was a little more relaxed and stood very strong and head very high like he was proud of how he/she did. His voice seemed to change a little and not much of protest either, i heard only one little squeek. Have a great holiday weekend, this extra day gives me more time to watch Bright Star and not be interupted with work
August 31st, 2007 at 8:18 am
Woudn’t it be cool if Bai Yun gave birth to….
TWINS?
August 31st, 2007 at 9:40 am
Did anyone else notice the ” towel” used to bring cubbie into its most recent exam? It looked like it could have been made out of Mama Bai’s fur. How sweet to use this to make cubbie feel comfortable in new surroundings!
August 31st, 2007 at 9:47 am
Thank you Suzanne for the reply. I was really panicked – just a little anxious.
I love watching Bai with little cubmuffin. No matter how bad my day is, I go to the panda cam and I can’t help but smile at watching this beautiful loving mother care so gently for her baby! What a blessing to have glimpse into the care of a newborn panda cub and all because the staff at the SDZ is focused on informing everyone about the Giant Panda! I guess I’ll never be able to thank you enough for allowing us to be a very small part of what you experience on a daily basis. Thank you so much!
August 31st, 2007 at 10:27 am
I recently posted on iZoofari after listening to the recording by Dr.Geoff Pye.
Within the text of the posting I mentioned that I think Dr. Geoff referred to Bai’s cub as ‘her’ at (approx 1.20 into the recording) – has any other pandaholic noted the point ? also the comparison of data relating to Su Lin and not Mei Sheng.
We must all be patient and wait the announcement but it would appear that Bai possibly has another girl ??
August 31st, 2007 at 11:19 am
Are you trying to imply that the new cub is an hermaphrodite? Her DNA could have been tested by now. Please kindly let people know if the cubbie is a he or she. Thank You
August 31st, 2007 at 11:44 am
Yes, Hazel….I caught that little ” her” also, but wasn’t sure if it was a slip, the cute Aussie accent, or just me wanting a GIRL baby so much. I too feel that females, in the gene pool are a vital key to increasing panda numbers in the wild. Hopefully, one day, they will be wild and plentiful in their natural bamboo habitat. This little babe is just one step forward on that LONG road back to a balanced natural setting.
Isn’t our little cubmuffin growing beautifully? Can’t wait for the exam video….I just KNEW when I saw Bai Yun eating apples and fruit yesterday, that we were ALSO going to get a treat!
Moderator’s note: The video from the August 30 exam can been seen from http://www.sandiegozoo.org/videos/index.html
August 31st, 2007 at 1:32 pm
About determining cubmuffin’s sex, from what I’ve seen and read, they are just grabbing the little thing for quick checks of heart rate and size to make sure it’s eating well (as if the video of that roly poly thing isn’t enough of a clue!).
Oh, also, I remember reading about a panda born in China and sent to a zoo in Japan to breed with a female, but nothing happened no matter what they did. They finally did an exam and found out that the ” male” was actually a female, and someone had misidentified it at birth!
Susie #82–to get dna, they would need to take blood or do other things that I think would be considered too ” invasive” on such a young animal.
Boy, Girl, doesn’t matter, cuz I love watching!
August 31st, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I thought I caught the vet slip yesterday with a ‘her’ too but have not listened to it again! That would be the second slip! We are all thrilled that it’s so strong and healthy but it’s SO hard to keep waiting. It’s so much more personal so say ‘he’ or ’she’! I think the fact that it is so calm and quiet points to it being a girl, too. Mei Sheng and Tai Shan were needier.
We just try to patiently wait and watch Bright Star grow bigger and stronger every day! What an adorable cub!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Hi there Bright Star – thanks for your update about how you’re doing (which is more than the vet told us – in fact he sounded a little bored with the whole exam yesterday. Everyone seems to think you’re a little girl due to slips of the tounge. Whatever you sure look healthy. Got a great glimpse of you this afternoon, looked liked you were nursing. Who certainly are growing – write again soon & keep us posted on your life as a beloved cubbie.
September 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Giant Pandas will give birth to single babies or even twins in china, but once in a picture posted in 1999, there were…
PANDA TRIPLETS!!!
Unfortunatley, the smallest one (the panda baby in the middle of the picture) died at 3 days. When the picture was taken, the cubs were 1 day old.
September 17th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
i just saw a new picture of a new birth of a panda so small .i would like to how the baby panda is doing now do you haveany new more baby’s there i am from oklahoma