Weighty Matters
Posted at 7:23 am October 31, 2005 by Suzanne HallSome of you have noted that Bai Yun is a rather large bear. She is typically weighing in at about 100 kg (220 lbs) these days. She isn’t the leanest animal at our facility by a long shot. However, we aren’t alarmed by her size for a variety of reasons.
Bai Yun has always been a big panda. Her daddy is Pan Pan, who was always one of the largest males in Wolong while in his prime. These days, Pan Pan’s offspring are the big boys on the block: his large son Da Di has taken over the titles of “Largest” and “Best Breeder.” Other sons (like the National Zoo’s Tian Tian) have also grown up to be formidable animals. Clearly, Bai Yun has the genes to be of above average size.
Most of the panda females in Wolong are smaller than the average-size male. They aren’t as tall or as long. When I visited Wolong for the first time in 2000, I was very surprised at my meeting with Bai Yun’s mother, Dong Dong. I expected her to be a big girl, like her daughter. But Dong Dong was small in stature. Only her belly was large, a common feature of older, mature panda females. As the females age, they seem to become less muscular and more “soft,” not unlike people!
There are a few big Wolong females, however. A wild-caught female, Ying Ying, is tall and long and would give Bai Yun a run for her money. And one of the females born at Wolong, Fei Fei, is also of good size. She’s round and robust and…she’s one of Pan Pan’s daughters. Even among the examples of large females, Pan Pan’s name seems to come up!
Gao Gao is on the small size for males, weighing in at a mere 79 kilograms (174 pounds). Compared to the males at Wolong, his size is more comparable to that of the females. As a wild-caught male from an area of China far from Wolong, his gene pool is clearly different from that of the larger Pan Pan. But in captive breeding, differences are to be celebrated. A varied gene pool in the captive population means you are less likely to run into inbreeding problems, which can result in undesirable medical and reproductive issues.
As we have discovered, size doesn’t matter in Gao Gao’s case. He has proven himself, twice, to be an excellent breeder, even in the face of handling a much larger mate in Bai Yun. It remains to be seen whether his offspring will more resemble their father or their mother with regard to size. Mei Sheng, currently 68 kilograms (149 pounds), will not reach his mature size and weight for a few years yet. And our new little girl has a very long way to go before we can make such an assessment. I guess we’ll all have to stay tuned!
Suzanne Hall is the panda research technician for the San Diego Zoo’s Office of Giant Panda Conservation.
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October 31st, 2005 at 8:04 am
Dear Suzanne, Once again thank you so much for the latest information. Knowing so much about the pandas can only make the thousands of visitors to this site feel more part of the family, as indeed I do. It’s such a treat to come here every day and know we will be given more of an insight into their wonderful world. It amazes me how so like humans they act, and how the offspring don’t come in a ” standard” size as it were, that they take after Mum or Dad, just like us humans.
Going off topic a bit, forgive me, but this is just a little thing that absolutely thrilled me. On 10/26 at approx. 5.15 pm, I got a picture of Mum and Babygirl both sitting side by side in the doorway looking out on the world. I had a little chat going on in my head. Mum – ” shall we go out and explore?” Babygirl – ” no, let’s be girls together and just sit here and chill out” . Oh, how I would love to be able to send this picture as my Christmas Card this year. It was a tremendous shot.
Take care Suzanne and everyone who makes my day by keeping us updated.
Valerie Warburton – uk.
October 31st, 2005 at 8:25 am
Another excellent blog with lots of info for us!! I always look forward to your wonderful write ups, Suzanne!! The family tree info is great to know.
I suspect that our baby is going to be smaller like her Daddy Gao Gao. Our DC boy, Tai Shan, looks like he will be taking on the traits of his Grandpa, Pan Pan!
October 31st, 2005 at 8:35 am
Good morning sweet ” princess butterfly.” I have not seen you since Friday afternoon. Hope you had a great weekend, cuddled in your mother’s arms where it was warm and cozy. How proud you are of your parents as stated in this morning’s message. And big brother is so handsome. Keep crawling around to get your legs strong. Lila
October 31st, 2005 at 9:38 am
Bears, in general it is said, do not have good eyesight. How is the eyesight of pandas? Tai Shan, at SNZ, is really walking now and could really travel except that he still goes around in circles always winding up against the walls or in a corner. Is this because of bad eyesight? Or What?
October 31st, 2005 at 10:04 am
We had a good laugh this morning when we found out that Bai Yun’s mother’s name is Dong Dong because we have been calling our baby girl Ding Dong since her birth. Ding Dong is a black and white Hostess brand snack cake. Again great info.” mahalo nui loa” thanks a lot in Hawaiian… By the way we call our baby boy in DC Oreo even though he got a new Chinese name..
October 31st, 2005 at 11:26 am
You said Bai Yun is a large bear and that Mei Sheng is too young to know what his adult weight will be, but what about Hua Mei? Has she grown up to be a big bear like her mother?
October 31st, 2005 at 11:31 am
A question in addition to #4, about eyesight. Bai Yun and her cub can see their reflections in the walls of the den. One day it looked like Bai was staring intently at her reflection. Have you noticed their reacting to their reflections in your monitoring the activities in the den?
October 31st, 2005 at 11:34 am
Thank you so much for the info on relations today. I have read previous posts by others here that Tai Shan and your sweet girl are related. Well that was bugging me cause I had never heard that. I was shocked to hear that Bai Yun and Tian are siblings. I love the connection though. I hope to see Tai Shan in December. I’ve wanted to come to SDZ since Hua Mei was born but it’s just not to be. I’ll have to enjoy your babies via internet.
Thanks for the updates.
October 31st, 2005 at 11:55 am
Thank you again, Suzanne. Your blogs are always so interesting and informative. The point about Gao Gao’s genetic diversity is very well taken. With so few Pandas, both wild and captive, left in the world it is important for us to remember that differences in size, physical appearance, and markings should indeed be celebrated. As much as my heart yearns to believe that someday the little Bubba and the Princess might have a cub of their own, the first consideration must be preserving the diversity of the available gene pool. I would hope that all of the Panda teams – and their governments – in the world are cooperating to ensure that preservation. We hear very little about the diplomacy, the red tape, the negotiations, and the money it takes to do this, but I’m betting that the investments in time, talk, and finances are huge. I’m also betting that there is a very large investment in genetic studies of the Pandas, with ongoing DNA research. Perhaps you could give us some insights on that aspect sometime.
October 31st, 2005 at 1:19 pm
How does the mother panda carry her baby in and out of the den? Does she hold her in her mouth, like mother cat with a kitten? Or does she pick her up with one arm, and walk on three legs?
October 31st, 2005 at 1:22 pm
I’ve heard a lot about grandpa Pan Pan in the past being the largest panda in Wolong, and very curious what he looks like. Suzanne, would you by any chance post a picture of Pan Pan on the website to show us? Thanks.
October 31st, 2005 at 2:10 pm
Not only is Tien Tien of the National Zoo a big panda as a son of Pan Pan and brother of SD’s Bai Yun, Mei Xiang, Tien Tien’s mate and mother of Tai Shan, is about as big as Bai Yun. It’s no wonder that Tai Shan is such a large cub, and he will probably be a very big panda, maybe another Pan Pan!
October 31st, 2005 at 2:35 pm
To #10, Nancy: When I have seen Bai Yun carry the cub out of the den it has been in her mouth, like a mother cat with a kitten. The cub, at around 8 pounds, is a big ” kitten,” but Bai Yun is no house cat either.
October 31st, 2005 at 3:03 pm
To Martha (#12): Have you seen the latest exam news on NZ’s Tai Shan? Our little bubba is now 15.5 lbs and looks like a black & white beach ball! What a hoot and apparently starting to be a handful for keepers too. Meanwhile, baby girl is staying true to her name – whether it be Jiao Mei or Su Lin – with her dainty proportions.
And thanks to Suzanne for once again providing us with more insightful information about pandas. By the time I finally get to see some real live pandas, I will feel like an expert. Next year I will try to visit both San Diego & Memphis zoos, but I’m afraid Tai Shan is the one who has stolen my heart.
October 31st, 2005 at 3:20 pm
Dear Suzanne, Found this article very interesting…does the S D Zoo know the weight of our 1st born, Hua Mei. Is she following in Grandpa’s and Mama’s gene pool? Always find your comments of great interest and follow them daily. Thank you for the time you spend updating us with your most appreciated comments.
October 31st, 2005 at 5:39 pm
Thanks again Suzanne for all the wonderful information. I couldn’t resist adding to your insight on Gao Gao’s abilities to mate with Bai Yun regardless of his size by noting something of Bai Yun’s personality too. When Shi Shi was around she was so helpful, so willing and he was not, you have to admit. Bai Yun has such a nice disposition. But you know about her more than we do Suzanne…
October 31st, 2005 at 6:31 pm
Once again, you have given us such great information Suzanne. I look forward to your ” lessons” ! Call me dumb, but I didn’t realize that pandas could have such varied sizes, and take after their parents. I guess I figured they were all pretty big! Thanks for telling us about Pan Pan.
October 31st, 2005 at 7:26 pm
Thanks a million, Suzanne. So glad to know that Bai Yun and Tian Tian are siblings. Then, Tai Shan and this little girl are cousins, right? How wonderful!
One observation: the panda cubs look much smaller from the cam than what they actually are. Only when there is an exam and you guys are holding them can you tell that they have grown up so much.
November 1st, 2005 at 5:45 am
SHE MAY BE BIG BUT SHE IS ONE OF THE MOST LOVING MOTHERS AND SO GENTLE. THANK YOU FOR THE INFO.
November 1st, 2005 at 7:25 am
Just wanted to write a quick note to let you know that we here in D.C love your ” little girl” as much as we are smitten with Tai Shan. I love the Panda Blogs and have learned a great deal about the pandas. I look forward to visiting Tai in December and my husband and I are planning a trip to Southern CA next spring. I was fortunate enough to see Hua Mei twice while she was at SD zoo and look forward to visiting the little princess in April.
November 1st, 2005 at 7:34 am
Hi everyone! We’re always thanking Suzanne and the staff at SD for their great updates on our sweethearts – and we truly are thankful, but I want to say ” thanks” to all you bloggers out there. I get such a kick out of reading them and quite often a good giggle, too. It’s great to read other people’s perspectives, ideas, and thoughts on our precious pandas. Keep up the great work SD and we’ll keep on bloggin’.
Please give our little sweet pea a big hug for me
)
Jeannie
November 1st, 2005 at 8:47 am
Let’s be charitable here…. Bai Yun; not fat, just fluffy (been using that excuse myself for years)
November 1st, 2005 at 8:57 am
Hello. I have asked several times, but haven’t seen a response. Can anyone tell me about how Shi Shi is doing? I wish we could get some kind of updates on ” our” pandas at Wolong. Thank you for all your wonderful work. Hugz and kisses to all our critters. Candy
November 1st, 2005 at 10:26 am
I am sure Suzanne will address the Hua Mei weight and size issue. As I recall Hua Mei at 4 1/2 years (still here in San Diego) was comparable in size and weight to her mother, Bai Yun. However, she still had not reached full adulthood at that time.
November 1st, 2005 at 11:59 am
Looks like Tai Shan is going to take after daddy and be a big bear too.
November 1st, 2005 at 2:19 pm
” Fluffy” is a fun description of our Big Mama. It’s amazing how carefully she is able to handle Baby Girl and how tenderly she holds her in the curve of her paw while the cub is nursing or sleeping. She clearly loves her baby! Thank you, Suzanne, for sharing so many interesting things with us. It’s very helpful to have you fill in the blanks for all of us. I thought it was just my wishful thinking, but it looks like someone else saw the baby try to stand while leaning against mom. Also, thanks to all camera operators for showing more of ” the boys.” When the baby is sleeping, the outside shots help us keep up with what they are doing, too.
November 1st, 2005 at 3:04 pm
A few mornings ago, Mei Xiang was in the den munching on a long piece of bamboo and the free end was waving around Tai Shan. He got annoyed and lunged at it and barked! Twice! It was so cute and surprising that I laughed out loud. But it got me wondering…. He’s getting to be a big Bubba, and he’s developing some opinions about things like shots and thermometers…. Do mother Pandas discipline their cubs? How? I’ve seen both mothers pick up the cubs and move them, and I’ve seen both mothers – especially Mei – gently hold the cubs down with a paw. I once saw a wild black bear smack her cub on the rear end and send him up a tree. Do Panda moms believe in spanking?_
November 1st, 2005 at 3:49 pm
I have been watching the baby cub for about 4 weeks now. Today I noticed her moving very well with her front paws and trying to get the back ones up. It was comical and so exciting. Is she trying to walk?
November 1st, 2005 at 6:15 pm
Thanks so much for the information. My son and daughter love to watch the pandas and were very excited when we actually saw them 3 years ago. My son thinks he would like to work with the pandas. If he were going to do so, what should he study in college? Thanks!
November 1st, 2005 at 7:15 pm
It is interesting info. Some of those lovely pandas are actually relatives! I think the SD zoo weblog is really open-minded. You have posted some comments about Tai Shan only.
It seems that baby pandas are also good at self-entertainning. I saw Tai plays with his paws, sitting, rolling, and didn’t cry for attention. (Their mouth can touch their rear paws easily, like human babies can easily try to suck their toes). I just can’t get enough of them.
I think we will miss this time period. Soon Tai and our cute baby girl will run around and it will be hard for the camera to follow them all the time. (Just look at Mei Shen, I think we need an array of cameras to record his movement.)
We are very grateful for all the great work you have done.
November 1st, 2005 at 8:59 pm
Are Bai Yun’s keepers able to touch her? Also, does she know when the cub is taken out of the den and does this bother her? When you take the cub out of the den do the keepers have to be careful not to get human scent on her?
Thanks!
November 2nd, 2005 at 8:03 am
Lately i have noticed that bai yun has been taking the cub outside of the den more and i was wondering where she takes her and what happens when the cub is outside of the den?
November 2nd, 2005 at 9:22 am
Comment #31
I remember one of the health exam videos of Mei Sheng shows that during the examination, Bai Yun was waiting outside and she looked into the room through the window, she didn’t look annoyed or anxious. If you watched the video clips again you would find the vets and keepers putting on plastic gloves to avoid human scent on the cubs.
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:52 pm
#27 Comment: Discipline
In watching Bai Yun and Mei Sheng, occasionally Bai would place one or both of her front paws in the area of Mei Sheng’s neck or shoulders as if to hold him still. At the same time, she would stare intently at him (give him the evil eye). I assume this was Bai’s form of discipline. There may be other forms of discipline that someone with more knowledge of pandas could add.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:14 pm
Why is the cam so dark today?
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:10 pm
I am happy to know that our little girl has gained almost one pound in one week! That’s great… and she will be soon walking, she’s trying hard at it =)Well done little one..
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:43 pm
I have been watching the mother and baby interactions at least once a day since September. I think it might be the sure cure for the stresses of modern life to watch them. Bai Yun is such a good mother. The baby girl is endlessly fascinating.
I do notice that when the baby is by herself, she appears to be sucking her left paw. Do pandas suck their thumbs?
November 2nd, 2005 at 6:54 pm
A little bit before 6 PM I started watching the Panda Cam and saw Bai Yun pick up Baby Girl and give her a very thorough bath. I could just imagine the cub finally saying, ” But Mom, you already washed that place three times!” (She really was very cooperative and actually didn’t seem to mind.) Afterward, Bai Yun turned on her back and let the baby crawl up to nurse. It was such a lovely time and nice that we could all enjoy it with both of them. Is Bai Yun going to teach parenting classes to the other moms at the zoo? She could give out certificates to those who meet her standards.
November 2nd, 2005 at 8:13 pm
I still would like an expert answer on the panda eyesight. I don’t mean something within an inch of their nose. Everything I read says bears depend on their keen sense of smell as a guidance because of poor eyesight.
November 2nd, 2005 at 9:51 pm
I live in Johannesburg, South Africa and have always had a love for the pandas. The chances of me ever seeing a live panda is almost non existent. To be able to view mother and cub is an amazing experience. This gives us an opportunity to see and learn about these beautiful, God’s perfect creations. I would like to thank the San Diego Zoo for this opportunity. I was amazed to see what loving mothers pandas are.
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:21 am
Does Bai Yun still remember that Mei Sheng is her cub? Does or can she interact with him?
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:46 am
re-Comment by Monica I too have found that watching the tenderness and joy in the interaction between Bai Yun and her precious baby has eased my stress and brightened my day. As soon as I get up and connect to their cam the smile on my face and in my heart is automatic. The simplicity of their bond brings a kind of magic into our world and we are so privileged to be able to peek into that miracle. Thank you all for all of your dedication and devotion to these wonderous and marvelous creatures! It is because of you that the future is full of hope! Luv to you all, Judy J
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:56 am
Ok,the person that took the latest exam pic did a fabulous job! I adore the expression that the cub has. Thanks for posting the pics because we sure do love them! Have a great day. Vanessa in Virginia
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:26 am
I’m always amazed how little the cub looks in the den and how big she looks when someone holds her. That must be a very large den! Thank you all so much for all the updates!
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:40 am
I actually weep everytime I see these 2 tender moms nursing their precious babies. I’m more than certain that they teach and discipline their cubs by way of licking and looking at them. Tai knows where he’s not supposed to be. Many times he scooted to the front door and quickly turned right around as if to say ” mama says not to go out.”
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:07 pm
Thanks for the beautiful shots of mom and baby outside the den… they were so clear. So now we know what they do when they go out!! To get a little bit of fresh air… how beautiful both girls look together.
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:16 pm
Thanks so much for finally letting us see Bai Yun and the cub outside on the grass. These ” field trips” probably pique the cub’s curiosity about the world beyond the den and makes her want to learn to walk and explore on her own.
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:28 pm
Our little girl is so active today trying to get her feet moving. Are Pandas aggressive like brown and polar bears?
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:59 pm
I have the same thinking with Comment 45. When Tai Shan returned to the entrance of the den, he hesitated to enter the den and turned around and around in front of the door, he took a few steps to have a look at the metal bracket as if he wanted to explore outside, but he eventually returned to the den.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:07 pm
Treated tonight to magical bath time, Bai Yun twirling the little one on all four paws to get behind and ears.
Got to wondering if your babe protests like Tai Shan, with his husky grunts and whiney squeals. Are her declarations more ” feminineâ€? Fewer, or about the same?
I’m amazed by the range of sounds pandas have. Wish your cam had audio, but just thankful to be able to see such sweet moments.
Thank you, SD staff, for all you do for these endearing and irreplaceable creatures.
November 7th, 2005 at 2:00 pm
I think your weblog is wonderfully informative and entertaining. It’s great to know about the family history of these pandas. I’ve been watching Tai Shan at the National Zoo for the past few months and keeping up with their daily updates, but had no idea he’s related to several of your pandas!
When I visited your site to see how your panda cub was doing, I actually thought how neat it would be if your cub and Tai Shan were to meet. And to learn that they’re actually cousins was really something! It would be great if there were a family tree diagram for all the pandas. Does one exist?
Pandas are truly fascinating animals. Keep up your wonderful work!
November 8th, 2005 at 6:33 pm
how much did Shi Shi Weigh?
November 8th, 2005 at 9:02 pm
To Christiana (#51): the ” home zoo” of each SSP (Species Survival Plan) is responsible for keeping the breeding records of that species, I believe. The home SSP determines the moves between SSP participating zoos of each individual animal, so that blood relations do not breed. I’m sure there are one or more zoos keeping records of the captive pandas. The Knoxville Zoo is the home zoo for the red panda SSP in North America. There is another zoo in Australia that is the home zoo for the red panda SSP for AustralAsia, I think. I know they keep records by assigning numbers to each animal, but whether they keep family trees with names is a different story.
November 8th, 2005 at 9:28 pm
I just realized I made a mistake and want to give credit where credit is due. The Cincinnati Zoo is the lead zoo for the red panda SSP. The Knoxville Zoo has had the most success in breeding captive red pandas (probably helped greatly because their climate is most like their natural habitat).
November 9th, 2005 at 12:44 am
Adding my thanks to all those responsible for panda care and upkeep.
I’ve fallen in love with both wee zoo cubs. And I’ve read a great deal about pandas in the last few months (I’m expecting myself!). But there’s a question I can’t answer. When cubs and moms are separated and the cub is old enough to be on his/her own, is it traumatic? For the cub? For the mom? For the staff? How do you know when it is time? How do the pandas know?
November 9th, 2005 at 1:07 pm
Do the pandas ever go on loan to other zoos?
November 20th, 2005 at 5:47 am
I was reading how you said that Pan Pan’s descendants can grow to be large and took a good look at the National Zoo website-it would appear that the same is true of little Tai Shan already (his mother is having a tough time picking him up.) How long do you expect the size gene to show up? Will we be seeing great grand-bears as big?